Episode 76: Why Mold & Mycotoxins Might Be Making You Sick with Neil Nathan, MD
Show Summary:
We are excited to share this conversation with Dr. Neil Nathan that will shed light on a topic that needs more awareness amongst both patients and practitioners: mold and mycotoxins.
Dr. Nathan is a leading expert on mold and mycotoxins who over the 50+ years of his practice helped to diagnose and treat patients who had not been helped by conventional medicine. He is an author of several books including his book “Toxic: Heal Your Body from Mold Toxicity, Lyme Disease, Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, and Chronic Environmental Illness”
For those who have suffered from symptoms such as chronic fatigue, cognitive impairment, chronic sinus symptoms, digestive issues, and joint pain without answers, today’s conversation with Dr. Neil Nathan is one you don’t want to miss.
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Full Transcript:
Dr. Neil Nathan:
The number one thing is to make the diagnosis meaning to look at the complex symptoms that you or a loved one or friend has, and go, oh, did we ever think about mold toxicity is the cause, because it is missed so often, there are so many suffering people in this country who could be helped if they knew what was wrong with them. So if you have a weird, wild collection of symptoms that make no sense, even to doctors that you've been to think well,
Dr. Andrew Wong:
we are excited to share this conversation with Dr. Neil Nathan: , that will shed light on a topic that needs much more awareness amongst both patients and practitioners. And that is mold and mycotoxin illness. Dr. Nathan is a leading expert on mold and mycotoxins who over the past 50 plus years of his practice helped to diagnose and treat patients who had not been helped by conventional medicine. He is an author of several books including his instant classic book, toxic heal your body from mold toxicity, Lyme disease, multiple chemical sensitivities and chronic environmental illness. This is a book we regularly refer to here at our clinic capital, integrative health. My name is Dr. Andrew Huang, co founder of capital Integrative Health. This is a podcast dedicated to transforming the consciousness around what it means to be healthy, and understanding the root causes of both disease and wellness. And mold is one of the huge underrecognized root causes of disease. For those who have suffered from symptoms, such as chronic fatigue, cognitive impairment, chronic sinus symptoms, digestive issues and joint pain without finding answers. Today's conversation with Dr. Neil Nathan is one you don't want to miss.
Welcome Dr. Nathan to our podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today. Oh, thank you for having me. So we've been in practice for a number of years now. And one of the things that we've learned a lot about is mold and mycotoxins. And, you know, a lot of what we do is, you know, deal with people with chronic illness or, you know, chronic health concerns, I would say. And over the years, what I've learned is that, you know, mold and mycotoxins can play a key role and some of their, you know, health issues. And it might be the barrier or the, you know, barriers, I should say to, to, you know, health and healing and wellness. So that's kind of our topic for today. But just to get a little bit more into, into kind of your story, which I know, we usually like to ask with that first as an opening question. Dr. Nathan, if you could tell us kind of more about what drew you to integrative health, you know, after starting your path in medicine.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
I think that starts in medical school, where I was one of those really annoying medical students who kept asking my professors. Well, why do you do it that way? I mean, what, what is the rationale behind doing this and not doing this? And so my medical professors either love me or hated me
I was nobody in between.
But I kept feeling even in medical school, that there was a great deal missing in my education, but I couldn't put my finger on it. And I kept saying, we're missing something here. And my professors would say, Well, okay, Wiseguy, if you're so smart, tell us what we're missing. And I, I was too green, to know. But within a few years of leaving medical school, it became clear to me, I had language for it, it was that we were not including the spiritual and energetic and emotional components of health, with the physical components. So I learned to be a medical technician. But that's not what I wanted at a medical school. I wanted to be a healer. And I was very disappointed that that was not part of the curriculum. So, you know, when you leave medical school, some people think, Okay, I've learned everything I need to know and, and I left medical school with, gosh, I have a whole lot more I've got to learn here. I've got to study from anybody who has some answers for me. So
I spent the next 50 years literally studying with people in virtually every field, you might imagine, who had answers. Some of my studies, I wasted time, energy and money. And some of my studies were like, wow, this is important. This is a very important component to healing. So that's kind of the short answer of how I got into integrative medicine, because as a field, it
began to address the needs, that I had to be the best healer that I knew how to be to
Meet my patients needs at a much more profound level.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, sounds like it's patient driven and you're really an integrative medical practitioner before the term got got popularized. Yeah. I was practicing holistic medicine before that was a word. Yes, exactly, holistic, integrative functional, it's kind of evolved over time. Well, today we want to talk about more than mycotoxin in the role in both health and wellness. And for listeners who may not be familiar, we'll start with the basics. What is mold, you know, what is mycotoxins and mold toxicity, if you could just kind of touch on that briefly? Sure, I think everybody knows what mold is. It's that green stuff that grows on your food when you leave it in the refrigerator for too long, or on your windowsill or, unfortunately, in your house on the wall of the ceiling or any place. So, mold is a fungal organism, which has the capacity to make a toxic substance called a mycotoxin, which is a fancy medical word for mold toxin. Now it doesn't make mycotoxin to make us sick, it makes these toxins to keep other molds out of these ecosystem. So I'm talking to you now from Northern California, where I live the right out my window is a redwood forest. Then in that redwood forest, there are probably 1000 species of mold.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Most of them are not toxic to humans, and most of them are making toxins to keep other moles out of their ecological niche. So we have moles that prefer redwood trees and tan oaks and azaleas and rhododendrons. And so every, every little vegetation has its own preference.
So the molds make these toxins to keep others away. When they get into a water damage building, they begin to make toxins that really will affect us if there are toxic mold species. And what we've learned and this is a huge missing piece in medical education, what we've learned is that this is really common for people to be affected by mold toxicity, it's estimated that 10 million Americans currently are struggling with some degree of mold toxicity. And the vast majority have no idea that that's what's going on. It's like, well, big deal. So I see a little bit of mold in my bathroom. If you're genetically predisposed, that could be profoundly affecting your health. And we're just beginning to not only learn about it, but also learn how to treat it and diagnose it.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
That's a huge number of people. And would you say that clinicians, how trained are clinicians aren't on, you know, recognizing,
Dr. Neil Nathan:
let alone treating mold related illness? Very poorly. Many doctors, not only are not aware of it, but fight the concept of it.
And my favorite answer from doctors, when I've talked to them about this is they'll tell me, Well, if what you're saying is true, they should have taught me this in medical school.
And I go, what you're telling me that they should have taught you something in medical school that we didn't know about back then. Because that's why you don't know about it, and refused to accept it. For me, that's like a crazy argument. It's like make no sense at all. But you can't believe how often I hear that, which is if this, if this was really true, someone who would have taught me already.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, it's about keeping an open mind. And you know, science advances near the things that we find, we have found to be true, you know, five years later, half of them are not true. So I mean, that's actually something my dean told me, and that was really nice to hear on day one of medical school, you know, it's like, Oh, you want to learn this, and you want to learn a well, but then keep an open mind, because things might change over time or new discoveries. But, you know, mold has been around for forever, you know, so it's just that we, you know, humans are starting to really discover that it's really important to look at this sometimes for health and disease. How does mold toxicity affect our, our body as a whole? I think maybe getting into some of the different symptoms or conditions that might be connected, which might be a huge list, of course. But I think just to give the listeners an overview of exactly how, how, how pervasive this could be affecting, you know, people's body, mind, spirit.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Sure, let me give it to you in two segments. First, let me give you an overview of symptoms. And then we focus on a few symptoms that are really really specific from all so people can begin to look at that. The big thing is that mold toxins create an inflammatory reaction in the entire body, and can affect every organ system of the body by inflaming it. And of course, we are all biochemically and genetically unique. So not everyone will have the same presentation of the same symptoms. If you have a propensity for weakness in your lungs, you'll have lung based symptoms. If it's in your joints, you'll have joint based symptoms. And so on it goes. So every organ system can be involved. There are general symptoms like fatigue, cognitive impairment, like brain fog, difficulties with focus, memory and concentration, weakness, there's a kind of general, like a lot of things, we'll do that. And then we have specific organ systems like lungs. So it can cause Bronco spasm, or an asthma like condition. It can cause shortness of breath, air hunger, wheezing, any of the above, it can cause joint or muscle pain in any joints of the body, and it can shift and move around. It can cause neurological symptoms like numbness and tingling in different parts of the body. A wide variety of other neurological symptoms, which we call peripheral neuropathy. It can cause every type of gastrointestinal system, possible gas, bloating, constipation, diarrhea, cramping, abdominal pain. So it can cause urinary tract symptoms that can cause pelvic pain bladder symptoms. So floaters in the eyes, it can cause visual disturbance and sinus difficulties of every type. So that's only a part of it. So basically, often, if a physician doesn't know anything about it, a patient will come in complaining of multi systemic issues, like I've got this doc, and I've got this and I've got this and I've got this. And then a doctor who doesn't understand it will go, oh, it's got to be in your head. Because nothing could do all of that. And the answer is, oh, yes, there are quite a few things that will cause this type of inflammation, mold is only one of them. There are many infectious illnesses that are most prominent being lined with its CO infections, but chlamydia, infections and mycoplasma infections and some viral infections will do. So when if physicians don't understand this inflammatory process, then they will be left with Well, I don't I don't know what's causing that. So it must be in your head. And that's unfortunately, how a lot of these patients have been treated.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yes, and then, oh, God.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
So now I'm going to shift to a more specific symptoms. So particular types of pain. If a patient complains of electrical paints, or ice pick type pains, that's pretty much mold. If they have a perception of an internal vibration in their body, can't be seen, but they can feel it and it's very annoying. That's, that's mold, or Bartonella. If they have what a specialist will diagnose as an atypical fill in the blank, a typical rheumatoid arthritis, a typical ms, a typical Alzheimer's a typical Parkinson's, the word a typical means it kind of looks like this to me as a specialist, but it doesn't really fit. If you've been given that word atypical and your diagnosis, thick mold, pink line, and then we have every type of psychological process, because mold can affect the limbic system and the vagal. There is such a way that it will affect people's emotions profoundly. So people who have never before been anxious or depressed or had OCD now have profound anxiety which comes out of a blue or intense depression, or OCD behaviors, or it can worsen any psychological issue before. So these are things that you might particularly look at, if you've been working with a physician, not getting the help you need, not really being diagnosed. If you got any of that, start thinking about mold.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Thank you definitely. Thank you ever thought questions that comment about how mode can cause anxiety, depression, OCD, are you saying that it can cause an inflammation in the brain which is then embarrassing,
Dr. Neil Nathan:
I am saying that there is a type of MRI in which we can quantify the parts of the brain volumetrically called a quantum MRI or a neuro quant and you can see in the brains of mold patients, areas of the brain that are either swollen or shrunken and when we treat it It boasts come back to normal. So yes, there are specific things that we can see in which the brain areas of the brain are definitely being affected by this inflammatory process.
Unknown Speaker
Got it? Thank you. Now, I think let's talk about how mold exposure, if it's current or past, you know, how that might affect the person. So does mold exposure have to be current for it to impact someone, or can pass mode exposures impact someone's health, both.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
So it's more obvious. If you are living in a moldy environment and you smell it, and you see it and you have these symptoms. And you're lucky enough to find a physician who understands what we're looking at here, then it's slam dunk obvious, okay. more confusing, is that a lot of patients had mold exposure in the past, could be as long as 20 years ago. And the mold actually colonizes, which means it starts growing in the body, usually, in the sinus, or gut areas are often both. Now, if the immune system remains intact and strong, you can, you can kind of fend off those effects for a long time. But if your body takes a hit, it could be intense stress, it could be a cold COVID is a big one, which triggered for a lot of patients. Any type of inflammatory and infectious process that goes on in the body, could be surgery could be childbirth, anything in which the immune system takes a hit and loses containment, then that mold starts to grow and make toxins at a rate in which you can no longer cope with it. So, for example, Dr. Joe Breuer back in 2013, wrote one of the first papers to help us to understand it. He took 112 patients with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. And he measured urine mycotoxins and to his shock, 92% of them had mycotoxins in their urine, so that he treated them. And he wrote a series of two papers of 100 patients, each and two different groups, showing that you could cure those conditions. But the thing that got his attention was that when he asked patients, seeing all of this mycotoxin in the urine, he went, is there mold in your current living environment? And, and he went after it? And for a lot of those patients, the answer was no. Well, when were you exposed? And he would get two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and it's still in their bodies? So the answer is, you're not truly safe. If you have a brand new home, and it's perfectly made, and I can't have mold toxicity. I mean, you've probably seen this, Andrew, when patients come in, and I asked them, have you been exposed to mold? And they say, Dad, I'll go, okay. Think about it. Invariably, they come back at their next visit and go, you know, I lived in a basement when I was a student at the University, and there was actually black stuff growing on the walls and any number of stories of that same nature. So, yes, and this is kind of an upsetting thing for people, it could have been something you were exposed to years ago.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, yeah, it is. And being a detective like that, you know, sometimes we can kind of look at Oh, what happened the past year, the past two years, but 20 years, that's, that's a pretty long window to go back to. In terms of testing, I think, let's get into that. Because we can look at, you know, how to get to, like you said, referenced about the root cause, you know, if someone has, say, a past mold exposure, or a current one, and we're trying to figure out how that might be affecting that person, what are the what are the tests, I do want to get into some some general ideas about how to address this too. But first testing, I would say would be one thing to look at what are your kind of your favorite test if you could just give our audience a bit of an overview of that?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Sure. The easiest way to do this and is very simple, is simply collect first morning urine, and you send it into a lab and they will analyze it for a variety of mold toxins, which we call mycotoxins. Simple tests, very easily done. And here's the deal. If there is a great deal of mold toxins in your urine, meaning it's, it's in your body, it's not a maybe it isn't. That's interesting. The next question would of course be okay, when did I get it and how? So there are a number of laboratories that do the tests. And for your audience. I have no financial ties to any laboratory or any supplement company, or any company that we bring up during this discussion? I haven't, I have none. So I do have a bias having done 1000s of these tests on a lot of patients. The I think that the real time company does the best job, analyzing the urine, and the best job at follow up testing. We also get some decent information from the Great Plains lab, we can get some information from vibrant health. And there's a blood test available for antibodies available from a lab called My Miko. Again, having done all of these tests on some patients to be able to compare the accuracy, real time seems to be the best.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
And and Dr. Nathan, are you I know we talked about this on email, but are you advising your patients to pretreat with glutathione can help with with kind of that urinary mycotoxin excretion?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Right? One of the things that mold toxins do is they poison the body, because they're poisons, and particularly, they interfere with the body's ability to detoxify. To translate that into English, you could have a boatload of toxin in your body, but you might not be able to get it out of your body through the urine, because it's always. So in order to get a better test, we will use sweating, which helps toxins to be mobilized, and glutathione. So an ideal test, if the patient can do it, not all people can take glutathione. But if you can, we'd like them to take glutathione for several days to a week before they collect their urine, and to do a sauna or a hot bath or a hot tub the night before they collect the urine. So we'll get a more accurate assay.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Great. And then let's say that someone does have a urine mycotoxin test that comes back positive, like you said, there's probably some current or past exposure going on. Where do you go from there? Because at that point, you know, in the conventional world, there's probably not necessarily a lot to do there from a, you know, from a conventional perspective, but certainly from an integrative perspective, what are kind of your general things you think about for detoxification of those mycotoxins?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Well, I think there are three main things that we first need to conceptualize it. First, we need to know where the toxin is coming from. Is it old? Or is it current? The reason we need to know that is that you can't get well, if you're living in a moldy environment or working in a moldy environment, you just can't get a little bit better, but you cannot get well. So we have to start by evaluating that patient's environment, home and work particularly for Am I getting exposed to toxic where I live, if you're not fabulous, we can jump right in and treat you. But if you are, we can still jump in and start treating you. But we're not going to make much progress until you either remediate where you're living or working, or move. And there's, it's very difficult. This is very financially difficult for a lot of people to even think about. But it's step one, without knowing that we're never going to get well.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I will use a water analogy here, which I think is appropriate for motive. If we have a dam and the hole is still there and not prepared, then we can we can try to put the water out but it'll still be leaking. It'll still kind of go in there.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Yeah. Then the next two pieces are we get some really wonderful information from our urine Mold Test. It tells us exactly which mycotoxins are present. So then I know how I can bind those toxins to pull them out of the body. Because all of the mycotoxins are biochemically different. You can't it's not like there is one thing that I can give you to pull that toxin out. We have to use a number of different binders to pull those toxins out. So I have a blueprint with my test results. Okay, you've got okra toxin, I know that I can use either coli start mean or well call which are medications or activated charcoal to start pulling that out. If you have glio toxin, you can use bentonite clay and saccharomyces boulardii mean you don't have to know the details. If someone is interested, my book toxic lays it out as exactly which and exactly how if someone's interested in doing
Dr. Andrew Wong:
and that's amazing book. We will remind people at the end of this too, but that's definitely used as a touchstone for all of us here in our practice. So we really love that book. Thank you for writing it.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Oh, thank you. So, we will then use the binders that we need to get start the process of pulling toxins out. And then, because the majority of our patients have colonized, we then have to use antifungals, both as a nasal spray for the sinuses, or orally for the gut to start killing the mold and Candida that's there. And with the binders on board, we'll be pulling all of that out of the body. That's the basic process.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So you're doing the binders first to kind of get the detox system moving before you start to introduce more weights products in the system with antifungal that makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Always and I want to emphasize it, you should not be using antifungals until the binders are on board. Otherwise, you risk what we call a die off. All antifungals work by punching holes in the cell wall of a fungus, so that it kills it. On the other hand, with a hole punched in it, its contents leak out, which include mycotoxins so if you want to flood the body with mycotoxins and you don't have binders on board, you're really risking what we call a die off reaction, which any patients who had it would say, we definitely don't want to be doing that.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, yeah. Do you have any general protocol for the number of weeks or how long you might put someone on binders before you getting into into some of the antifungal treatments?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
I want to have all of the binders that bind the toxins that are on that lab report onboard? Yeah, within a week. As soon as all of them are on board, within a week. Now we can start antifungals. But we do have to have the binders on board.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
And that makes sense. And then I think on the nutritional side any any sort of dietary recommendations you think about for people with mycotoxins?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Yeah, very much. So think of the fact that for the majority of our patients, they are growing Candida and mold in their body. We don't want to feed it. What do they like to eat? Carbs? Sugar is its favorite fruit second, but any carb will do. So basically, you want a high protein, low carb diet. And these days, most of my patients prefer what we call the autoimmune paleo type diet, because it's quite anti inflammatory in nature, given that we're working with an inflammatory process, that's very, very helpful in the healing process.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Makes a lot of sense. I do have to ask the mushroom question. So should Toki mushrooms and gnocci, etc. Where are you with mushrooms and all this?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
You know, a lot of the information that people go on is old. Meaning when Orrin trusts first started writing about Candida, he was under the impression that any, any yeast in any form that was ingested was Candida. Well, that's not really true. You're not really ingesting Candida when you ingest yeast. So you'll see in a number of diet regimens, avoiding mushrooms, vinegar, fermented foods and things of that nature. I don't think that's necessary. And I haven't done that for years. So mushrooms have healing properties of their own. Some of the mushrooms you mentioned, are excellent for helping the immune system to heal. I don't think they have to be avoided, because I don't they don't contain Candida per se. So I think there's been a confusion about lumping Candida with yeast, and the so called anti Candida diets. I know they're a little bit too stringent and probably not necessary.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I'm glad you said that. That was the answer I was looking for. made my day on that. Thank you so much. And yeah, because
Dr. Neil Nathan:
again, that's just my opinion. Yeah, there are people who disagree with me,
Dr. Andrew Wong:
right, right now Got it. Got it. Yes, not everything is all black and white. Right? It especially in the integrated world and probably in the conventional world, too, even though sometimes it's often written that way.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
I used to joke that if you can get two doctors to agree on anything that's as close to the truth is you're gonna get
Dr. Andrew Wong:
That's right. That's right. And then you mentioned in the beginning about how not only the body but also the mind and spirit can be affected and and addressing that can also be effective and in treating mycotoxins. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on integrative modalities that address mind, body and spirit. What are your kind of favorites for, you know, helping someone with chronic illness in general or maybe would say mold toxicity?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Well, let me get specific here. Mold toxin specifically affects three other systems, which have profound effects on the body. And if we don't treat them early, patients often can't get better. Those three systems are the limbic system, the vagus system, and mast cell activation. So, to be really specific about answering your question, the limbic system is the part of the brain that monitors regulates and controls, emotion, and sensitivity. So having mold toxicity, I had mentioned that you can get intense anxiety or depression or OCD, or it can worsen any underlying psychological. The limbic system is being affected. From the moment were born by all of the traumas and stresses that we experience. So that if you have a perfect idealized childhood, which very few people do, maybe nobody, that's great, your Olympic system will be robust and healthy, and not prone to over interpreting stimuli in the body as being dangerous or stressful. But if you have the kind of a childhood that everybody has to varying degrees, particularly if you've had a abusive childhood, emotionally physical or sexual, though, or if you've had a lot of physical trauma to the body, or a lot of surgeries, or a lot of interactions with physicians, with each interaction, your limbic system is looking at your environment, internal and external, the world you live in isn't very safe. So I as your limbic system, I need to protect you. And I'm going to protect you by scrutinizing the stimuli that you're exposed to. And I'm not going to let you do anything. So we're usually dealing with a somewhat compromised limbic system. And if we add to that mold toxicity, now we have a limbic system that is really hurting. And in an attempt to protect us, it will overreact to everything. So a lot of our patients will become overly sensitive to every stimulus can imagine light, sound, touch, chemicals, food, EMF, everything, and we will become emotionally mood swings, our emotions will fluctuate. So that's an integral part of this mold toxicity. You can't ignore it, and you can, but that would not be a healthy thing to do. It affects us spiritually. And one way of looking at spirituality is by asking the question, what gives your life meaning and purpose. And when you're as sick as most of the people that I see our life doesn't have much meaning and purpose. mean, we get up in the morning, and I feel awful, and I struggle to take a shower, and I go back to bed because that's so exhausting, and I'm anxious and I'm depressed, and I hurt, my joints hurt, and I can't think straight and I've got such fatigue. And we overlay that with the emotional impact and the spiritual impact of love being able to do what gives us meaning and purpose and we are off to the races in the wrong direction.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Thank you that's never heard it explained exactly that way. It's it brings a lot of clarity to you know, how it affects the limbic system, the vagus nerve, etc. Thank you so much for that. And I know a lot of people out there are probably struggling with, you know, mold mycotoxin other types of, you know, chronic chronic issues, I think you mentioned chronic infections, mast cell, etc. But for mold and mycotoxins specifically, what resources do you recommend, whether they're books or online resources and things that that, you know, for people to kind of start learning more about this? Because, you know, we know that we all need to educate ourselves on this. Well,
Dr. Neil Nathan:
first of all, I've written more about it than anybody I can think of. So my books, there you go, alright, well, I don't want this to be self serving. My book toxic, subtitled heal your body from mold toxicity, Lyme disease, multiple chemical sensitivity and other environmental illnesses, really covers this broadly and in quite a bit of what I hope will be practical and useful detail. If you want to read that much. I have an ebook, which I updated last year. That's called mold and mycotoxins, current evaluation and treatment 2022. And it's a 40 page ebook, which will go over mold toxicity specifically for both patients and their families. They don't have that much to read. If reading is an issue, which it is for a lot My patients, because they're cognitively impaired, toxic, does come as an audio book, and a lot of my patients have found that to be helpful. So nice. Those are two references. For those people who've gone gotten unusually sensitized, which I mentioned, I have a new book, which has just been written, and we're currently looking at going to press hopefully be out by late spring or summer, tentatively called, why is my body so sensitive, and what to do about it, where we describe, I've got a great group of authors that have combined to write the book with me, it's just, I don't think anything like it's ever been written, really helping those people who have gotten sensitive, many of whom have been dismissed and trivialized by the medical profession to realize this is very real, and we can treat it. So I'm excited about that. I looking
Dr. Andrew Wong:
forward to reading that as well as an integrative clinician, so thank you in advance for writing that. And what is one thing you wish everyone knew about mold into mycotoxins just to kind of sum up for people kind of a little bit of a take home here?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Well, first of all, everything we've talked about today is treatable. So that if you have this, this is treatable, this can be cured, and fixed for the vast majority of people who have it. So I want to leave you with a message of hope. Second, the number one thing is to make the diagnosis meaning to look at the complex symptoms that you or a loved one or friend has, and go, oh, did we ever think about mold toxicity is the cause? Because it is missed? So often, there's so many suffering people in this country who couldn't be helped if they knew what was wrong with them. So if you have a weird, wild collection of symptoms that make no sense, even to doctors that you've been to think well,
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I have a follow up question on that. On the kind of the typical national lab tests that we look at for things like chronic inflammatory response syndrome, things like TGF beta, I know see for a unit can be good at different labs. But are you using any of those kind of blood work tests in your practice as an adjunct to the urine mycotoxin test, you didn't run the urine testing?
Dr. Neil Nathan:
To me, the urine test is way more specific. It gives me a blueprint by knowing what's there. So it is far and away the best test. There are other tests, which we call inflammatory markers. As you mentioned, there's C for a TGF beta one MMP nine veg F. They will tell you that there's inflammation going on here, but they won't distinguish the cost. So if you get those back, and they're elevated, it tells you Yep, you're inflamed. But it doesn't tell you how. So it could be mold, it could be chlamydia, it could be a wide variety of things will elevate those particular tests. So I used them in the very beginning, before we had the urine tests, now that the urine tests are available, I don't use them anymore. Because, again, cost becomes important. And if I'm going to ask a patient to spend, I want them to get the test that will really show me what we've got, and how to treat it all in one test.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. And Dr. Nathan, thank you so much for coming on today and spending some time with us and educating us on mold and mold toxicity and kind of some of the things to look out for to to make that diagnosis and to really start addressing this, which, like you said, so 10 million people, that's, that's quite a lot of people, most of which have no idea that this is what's causing their symptoms and issues. So, Dr. Nathan, how can listeners learn more about you and work with you? If you could just kind of comment on that? That'd be great.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Sure, my website is pretty simple to get to. It's simply Neil Nathan md.com. Okay, and there's plenty of information there. I'm not treating people anymore. After 50 years in practice I retired about two years ago. But I'm still consulting as you know. So I'm working with other physicians with their complicated patients that I'm happy to consult with another physician and their patient to help them get the nitty gritty details and help them to heal.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Well, thank you so much. And definitely for listeners, check out Dr. Nathan's book toxic. It's really an amazing book for both patients and clinicians. I would say people that are interested in learning about more than how to detox in general. Thank you so much, Nathan, for coming on today. And we'll talk soon. Thank you.
Dr. Neil Nathan:
Thanks for having me. Pleasure.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Thank you for taking the time to listen to us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to leave us a review. It helps our podcasts to reach more listeners. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our next episodes and conversations. And thank you so much again for being with us.