Episode 54: Natural Skincare for Acne, Dry Skin, and Aging Skin with Lauren Dodge
Show Summary:
Learn more about Lauren and Fruits to the Roots at https://www.fruitstotheroots.com/
Follow on IG @fruitstotheroots
How can we achieve clear, youthful skin without the use of harmful chemicals in our skin care? How can we get more connected to our natural world through our skincare? That is what we are diving into in today’s podcast episode with Lauren Dodge.
Lauren Dodge is the Formulator, Founder & Co-Owner at Fruits to the Roots. Lauren explores intention, herbal medicine, the influence of planetary archetypes, and spiritual balance through skincare formulation, as well as ritual offerings such as soundbathing & tea ceremony experiences.
We’re excited to offer you this podcast episode hosted by Christine, the practice administrator at Capital Integrative Health with a unique view of integrative health as an herbalist and yogi herself.
Please enjoy this conversation with Christine and Lauren as they discuss natural skincare and how Lauren’s unique approach can help you to clear your skin and age gracefully.
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Full Transcript:
Lauren Dodge:
This is what inspired me to make better skincare. As I was learning these processes. I was like, Okay, how do I use some of these elixirs these magicks within our products, and sometimes they can take a month to make sometimes they can take three years.
Christine:
Oh my goodness,
Lauren Dodge:
I have my teachers have some that have been going, I think for seven to 10 years. So it just depends on again, the level of medicine you're trying to create. And again, how involved you want to be with it because it really is about elevating yourself and being present with something a little bit more.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
How can we have clearer youthful skin? Without the use of harmful chemicals in our skincare? How can we get more connected to our natural world through our skincare? These questions are what we're diving into today, with the podcast episode with Lauren Dodge. Lauren is the formulator founder and co owner at fruit to the roots and natural skincare company. Lauren explores intention, herbal medicine, the influence of planetary archetypes and spiritual balance through skincare formulations, as well as ritual offerings such as sound bathing and tea ceremony experiences. We recently had the pleasure of hosting Lauren and her husband Brian, who led us through a sound bathing and tea ceremony and that was really incredible. We're excited to offer you this podcast episode hosted by Christine, the practice administrator at Capitol integrative health with a unique view of Integrative Health as an herbalist and Yogi herself. Please enjoy his conversation with Christina and Lauren as they discuss natural skincare, and how Lauren's unique approach can help you to clear your skin and age gracefully.
Christine:
Hi, Lauren. Hi,
Lauren Dodge:
Christine:.
Christine:
Thanks for joining us today. Thank
Lauren Dodge:
you for having me.
Christine:
So excited to have you here. Me too. Why don't we start off with you telling us who you are and what you do?
Lauren Dodge:
Sure. I'm Lauren Dutch. Hi. I am a skincare formulator I am a facilitator for sound bath meditations. I also white label I create white label skincare products for various companies. What does that mean? Exactly? That means they get to buy my products and put their information on them. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So that is that is another thing that I do. And that kind of is an offshoot of obviously of fruits to the roots, my business fruits to the roots that name thank you. When my husband and I were trying to determine how to name our business, it just sort of flowed out. Yeah, I knew that I wanted to have a tree as our logo. And he's an artist. So I'm really, really lucky. He within like a week, created this really beautiful tree that if if you see our logo, immediately you see the tree. It's the roots below the stems and the fruit above. But what makes it even more special. And what I didn't see for about 30 seconds as I was looking at it is there's a woman's form hidden within the tree. Oh, I'll have to look again. So cool. Thanks for that. Yeah, there's also a little bird. And as he was drawing it, the only thing I said is I want a tree and I want a bird in the tree has to have fruit. And the roots need to be nearly as big as the canopy above it. Right. And the name just sort of happened when we saw the logo
Christine:
together. That's so great. And you did it together. That's even better. Yeah,
Lauren Dodge:
yeah. He is definitely a huge part of the business. It we started it in 2011 together. And it sort of came out of many circumstances that I was going through at the time. I wasn't feeling very well. I had always struggled with my skin. I had all of these passions I was pursuing but nothing seemed to really fit. And I had started making soap. He got me a for Valentine's day he got me a cold process. So making class Oh, great. I had been so nervous to go through the steps of actually learning how to make cold process soap on my own. And this class. I came home and I made I think it was 30 or 40 pounds of soap. In that same day that I took the class you were just because you were so excited. I'm so excited. And I started giving them to people and every person that tried our soap my soap at the time was responding with how can I get more of this? I want to buy some. And it was at the time something that I was playing with but not sure I really knew what I was doing. Yeah, yeah. and everything. We were in Los Angeles at the time. And it's, as, as I'm sure you're aware, like skincare is very competitive. So my edge then was how do I make this medicinal? How do I create medicinal soaps where people are getting sort of micro dosed every day with little bits of skincare healing and intention through bathing. And it sort of became very clear that I needed to do this, all of a sudden, people were coming back saying, My skin's never felt like this. I use a lot of good soap, but it's never really responded quite this way. And it was this aha, sort of magical,
Christine:
you found your thing, right? Yeah, I found it,
Lauren Dodge:
I found my thing. And, you know, he and I both had studied herbal medicine and various forms of natural healing, and worked with various teachers, but all of that information all of a sudden fit into where I could see my future going. And yeah, so he's been an enormous, he's been an enormous part from the beginning. It's so great.
Christine:
I love that you're using herbal medicine to help people in that way, you know, in a way that is often overlooked. Like you just get in the bath, and here's my soap. And yeah,
Lauren Dodge:
people often will smell something and they'll realize, oh, this is gonna be good for me. I'm gonna take this home. But what they maybe aren't fully aware of until a little bit later as I believe plants speak to us. And
Christine:
say, Yeah, me too. Yeah.
Lauren Dodge:
screaming from the rooftops. Yeah. I really do believe plants speak to us. And it happens in so many different ways every single day, walking outside of your house, maybe a tree brushes against you, and how does that make you feel? Oh, sorry, tree, I will talk to everything. Excuse me, pardon me. But someone smelling a bar of soap or a skincare product out immediately the aroma is what is going to start talking to them. And in the various forms of herbal medicine, aromatherapy, alchemy that I've studied. That aroma is, it comes from the essential oils. But to me, that is sort of the spirit of the plant. Yeah. So it's immediately trying to connect with you in a really, really special way.
Christine:
Yeah, it resonates. Yeah. What you're supposed to have resonate. Yeah, right. Yeah, totally. So I know, you just said a lot about this. But for our audience, can you describe a little bit about how your skincare products? And we'll get into how you formulate them later? But how is something that you would create different from what we might find in a drugstore or even a department store?
Lauren Dodge:
Hmm, that's a great question. Um, I hope in a lot of ways. When I first started making skincare, the sort of biggest difference was, how small batch everything was, how thoughtful the sort of herbal components work going into it. And a big part of my background and my husband's background is in alchemy. And for people are the listeners that are like alchemy, what is Yeah, can
Christine:
you can you explain that? Sure. Um,
Lauren Dodge:
we have teachers in Oregon, that we've been working with, he's been working with since about 2008, I think and I've been working with them since about 2009. And they have an alchemy school there. They used to now they just practice their work. And it is basically a while alchemy can be defined in a lot of ways. The truest form of alchemy is taking something and transforming it into something else. We can do that with ourselves. We can optimize ourselves, we can alchemize our breakfast cereal by adding superfoods to it or you know, sitting with it and being present in a moment of intention, really, those little things as silly as they sound as, maybe woo as they sound. Lovely. Exactly make you more present with what you're doing. And really, it's about presence. When we started going to this alchemy school, it was really we were drawn to it specifically because they were using alchemical techniques that are centuries and you know, decades and fascinating, very old, old things that they had either learned from some of their teachers or experimented with through various texts that they'd read, that they'd studied and they They were teaching it to us. But they were also applying these alchemical techniques that are usually done on minerals and metals to plants. And that is where we were like, oh, we need to know. We need to know more about this. It's called sponges, bricks.
Christine:
I have heard of this with the sage apothem, I think, yeah, maybe maybe,
Lauren Dodge:
I don't know, maybe, I'm sure you've heard of it. Where Yeah, I'm Spudgy. Derek's the, I'm going to do this horribly, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Christine:
Okay, we're here to learn.
Lauren Dodge:
Through it are, that word literally literally translates to separate and recombine. spiric and the Latin form as you sort of pull it apart. And the idea is that, as you are creating this medicine with a plant, you are separating it body, spirit and soul. And you are elevating each individual level, and then recombining them together so that it is more easily absorbed by the user. But also, the alchemy behind this beyond just the technique that that we use, is that every bit of work that you're doing with this plant, it's working with you. So as you work with it, it works with you, as you're working on this distillation,
Christine:
I was gonna ask, that's how you're doing it through distillation. Yeah,
Lauren Dodge:
there's a distillation component. And we use glass and really low heat to maintain as much of the integrity and intelligence of the plant and the plant body. And then once you have more complex than this, but I'll just tell you quickly, distilling the plant matter over you're using a kind of menstruum, which is water, alcohol, but not backup, water, alcohol, vinegar, sometimes other things. As you distill it over the plant body that's left, you then also elevate through a series of calcinations to get the actual minerals and salts of the plant.
Christine:
This is really involved. And I asked How are you different from drug store?
Lauren Dodge:
We don't do this with every single product, just to be clear that but this is what inspired me to make better skincare. As I was learning these processes. I was like, Okay, how do I use some of these elixirs these big Eric's within our products. And sometimes they can take a month to make sometimes they can take three years. Oh, my goodness, I have my teachers have some that have been going I think for seven to 10 years. So it just depends on again, the level of medicine you're trying to create. And again, how involved you want to be with it, because it really is about elevating yourself and being present with something a little bit more.
Christine:
That was a very unexpected, but really interesting answer.
Lauren Dodge:
Yeah, a little esoteric.
Christine:
Great. It's great. I mean, that's we want to do dig in and find out what you're doing. And how are you different, what sets you apart? I know. When I was thinking about you coming to do the podcast I was thinking about, I always say this, don't put it on your skin if you can't eat it, you know? So just I've chemical sensitivity, like I think probably a lot of our audience may or may, or I know some of them, at least probably experienced. So I trust your stuff, you know, and now that I know a little bit more about this process and like Wow, no wonder it's magic.
Lauren Dodge:
Well, and again, to be very clear, that is not something that's done with every product. It really and a lot of the spirits that I'm using in our skincare, I leave it to my teachers, so I trust them so much. They're able to really, really work with those extracts in a way that I don't have time because I'm from 7am in the morning until four or five at night working on formulating, making selling like it's just me. Yeah, it's just me, just you. So I want to I don't want to understanding the process, I think is just as important as doing it yourself sometimes. So that you can be very cautious and what's the word I'm looking for? Sort of intentional about where you get it, where you like if you're not the one producing it. So there's a lot of there's a lot of education.
Christine:
How do you decide what to make, like what is your process for coming up with something new, like a new product or new formula? It
Lauren Dodge:
varies. Sometimes I have people reaching out to me that have been longtime customers and they're like, so when are you going to do this And that was one thing with the vitamin C serum, someone actually came to me and they were like, Why haven't you made a vitamin C serum? And I was like, well, that's a process that
Christine:
sounds really involved, it is involved.
Lauren Dodge:
And for something like that, unfortunately, the sad answer with vitamin C ingredients is that that is not something I can produce, I actually have to trust a lab to create and synthesize that so that it stays shelf stable, so that it's not light sensitive, so that it won't go bad and sitting in a bottle. It's
Christine:
I don't, where do you begin with that?
Lauren Dodge:
With sourcing you mean?
Christine:
Yeah, I mean, how do you so I need vitamin C, wherever you go for
Lauren Dodge:
that. There are Cosmetic Labs, okay, that you can get ingredients from and it's going to vary in quality. As far as the lab goes, what you're going to get, I went through testing out maybe five or six different forms of vitamin C on my own from various labs, before I could even pursue working with one. And again, that's sort of it's a little more tedious than than just making a formula and hoping it works. There's microbial testing, there's shelf stability testing, and all of that is something I really care a lot about.
Christine:
Yeah. Because I know in your products, there are no artificial ingredients, right? Or are there maybes.
Lauren Dodge:
So no, there's not artificial ingredients. But there are a few, like,
Christine:
preservatives, some some there are preservatives, yeah, I saw one time because I was ordering something. And I was like, Oh my gosh, there's something in here. I don't recognize Yes. And I thought I wonder if you you found out that it needed to be more shelf stable as your business was growing. And things are sitting on a shelf, while you're waiting for you want to be ready for your customers, right? I don't know what the process was. But that's what I imagined, in my mind anyway, well,
Lauren Dodge:
as you're growing as a skincare business, or at least for me, this was my journey, there are many things that I was willing to start working with right away that I felt very comfortable with. And so anything that does not have water in it is going to be a lot more shelf stable, no matter how a person is using it. Unless it's a jar, that's something oil based that they're sticking their hand into right introducing a possible, you know, issue. But with serums. That's where I started a lot of the skincare formulations because like the Venus theorem and the moon serum, both of those aren't completely oil based. And they don't require a preservative. They do require antioxidants, like vitamin E, or plant based ingredients that contain a lot of antioxidant. I love the moon serum. And that actually has a spirit. Oh, good to know. Yeah, it has our oil of eggs with Eric in there. Oh, yeah. You
Christine:
know what? You know, I just went with it. I just found when I saw it, I was like oil with egg. I trust her. Okay, I'm doing it.
Lauren Dodge:
So that's an ingredient that that I trust with my teachers. They make it once a year on a very special full moon. And it is with eggs that are very well taken care of. So I trust them with it. And yes, I know that there's a lot of listeners probably right now that are like going well, I'm a vegan. And oh, yeah,
Christine:
we should address that.
Lauren Dodge:
Yeah, do you have data, but we, I think to each his own, I tend to always think about that when I'm formulating something, because I would like more people to be able to be excited about using it, not just people that are Yeah. One thing I do have to say though, is that I'm very particular about any sort of beeswax, honey, bee pollen, the oil a vague those I think are the only non vegan ingredients we work with. And it's because they're so much more powerful than some of the alternatives. The oil of egg is so special that you can put like a little drop of that spirit on your skin if you've got like a cut or something. And it seems to almost go away overnight. Oh, that's
Christine:
good to know. It's
Lauren Dodge:
so refreshing for the skin. It really helps with that sort of natural healing. And it's I mean, it's, it's just a it's a really, it's a really cool ingredient. I
Christine:
love it. I love it. I mean, I'd love the moon serum. And when I saw that it had oil egg, I was like okay, I trust her.
Lauren Dodge:
But just to revisit your question again just for a minute. When I'm formulating something, I like to think about the audience, you guys. I like to think about what I don't have in the product line because I do don't want to confuse people by overlapping too much. There's a lot of skincare companies that have so many products that it's hard to figure out which one is for you. And I don't I'm, I'm even getting to a point where I'm going, Oh, geez, how do I continue to grow this line without confusing people. And I've come up with create content. That's what I've come up with. So I'm working on it. But it starts with who wants to talk to me when I go and I look at the plants that I have either growing in my garden, that I've dried from previous garden harvest that I purchased from trusted sources, the plants a lot of times were like, well, I'm interested in being in a product. Oh,
Christine:
that's great. I would, because I was gonna ask you, like, how does herbal medicine connect and care and I love that it's intuitive.
Lauren Dodge:
And that's how I fell in love with herbal medicine. It felt intuitive, it felt beyond something that was just edging, just reading out of a book or learning from teachers learning and workshops, it it oozes out of me almost or into me, however, that's another thing, that's a big part of what we do. I believe that every, every plant wants to sort of share a moment of reflection with you. So another way that makes our skincare very different is it is very ritual oriented. I want you to be present with your unique beauty as you are sitting there applying your toner, feeling smelling, sort of creating that moment of Zen for yourself. And as you're massaging in your serum, really feeling your muscular structure beneath your skin. How does the aroma make you feel in that moment, and it becomes a sensory experience that is unlike a lot of other moments in life, I feel like
Christine:
yeah, taking the time, I love when I'm using your product speak. Not only do they smell divine, just letting you guys know, they smell so divine. I do feel like it's just it's there's some connectivity there, you know, to to the plants into you, I feel like that it's whoever made this I mean, even though the fact that I mean, I obviously know you, but whoever you look at this small, crafted thing, and you think, wow, someone really put a lot of love, thank you to this. So you can't help but I think just appreciate it as it's transferred from you to the jar to the next person, you know,
Lauren Dodge:
once again, like that's alchemy, that's distilled like you're distilling it down. Basically, right now you're talking about how, yes, intention is important in everything I do. And I love sort of projecting where the product will end up in as I'm making it as well, sometimes. I was talking to a friend recently, and she said something to me. And she was like, sometimes I don't know why I want to do this. And I'm like, Well, is it a plant? And she's like, No, it's almost like I'm hearing the person that's going to end up with this thing. Oh, that's so beautiful. And when she said that, I just was like, she makes amazing perfume. And she was just like, I feel like I can see and sense the wearer. And I was like, yes. That is exactly sort of the way that I have been able to experience but not articulate some of the when it's not a plan and talking to me, what is it? That's what it felt like? It felt like she broke something open in my head. And I was like, yes, that's that's what I'm feeling. Maybe it's what you're
Christine:
feeling then you're the people waiting for your magic. Yeah, so that was my next question. How do you choose the plants but it doesn't seem like you do they choose you?
Lauren Dodge:
They choose the they choose the product. They don't even choose me. Yeah, I mean, yes, we have a cohesive relationship. And there's a symbiosis there. Which I'm so lucky. I started working with plants and herbal medicine. I mean, honestly, if I really give you the, my family I grew up in a family of gardeners. So my mother's just an incredible gardener, my grandmother and my aunts. They're also good and I'm getting better, but I don't have just the natural instinct of gardening, which has always frustrated me. But what I'm realizing as I think back on being a little girl and wandering around my grandmother's garden and she's introducing me to these different flowers. That is how I work with plants. That is how I work with my ingredients is they're introducing themselves to me And they're saying, you know, maybe this is a time for me to, you know, pop into one of your products. So it's a really, it sounds so it is special, it is very special.
Christine:
I'm wondering for our audience who may or may not know, why is it better to use a product like yours as opposed to something that may have chemicals? Yeah, something that doesn't really grow naturally.
Lauren Dodge:
So there's a lot of reasons. One of the bigger ones is that typically, if you're going to be going to a drugstore, or even a department store to buy your cosmetics online, those products are formulated with such strong preservatives that they can sit in a warehouse that's not conditioned, that isn't, you know, taken, that temperature is not taken into account time is not taken into account in the same way. When someone is manufacturing those products or formulating those products in a lab. They're going, how long can I make this last? And how long will it be good for? And why would that be bad for us? Because that means they might be sitting in a in 102 degree warehouse somewhere for three years before it ever gets too late, where you can actually buy it.
Christine:
So at that point, if there ever was anything alive or helpful for our skin is probably not? I don't know,
Lauren Dodge:
I don't know, I have mixed thoughts on that. Just because, yes, I do think that there's definitely going to be less of a I mean, just just as there would be with mine if, if they sit for six months before I send them to you. They would be less alive. But that's why I make them in small batches still. With something like that? I don't have I don't actually have a good answer. But that is a big reason why I would say stay away because you don't know how long ago it was made. On top of that any sort of chemical. Because we are organic beings, we are natural creatures. Anytime you are working with natural skincare, it is almost a reef familiarity. It's almost a reintroduction to something that your skin just organically can understand and recognize. Yeah, it recognizes Exactly. And with chemical ingredients, I feel like there is a disconnect in that process. I also feel like as potent and as intense as something can be. In chemical form. It's not always the gentlest form. I think a lot of times people are like, I need something now I need something to work right. right this second. And natural skincare is going to take a little bit longer.
Christine:
That's good that you said that I was wondering. Yes. So consistency maybe is
Lauren Dodge:
key consistency is key. Sort of reforming a relationship with skincare as well. Because, I mean, I remember being a teenager when I first started learning about natural skincare, my husband's the reason that I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm gonna talk about him all day. Let's talk
Christine:
about what's his name, his
Lauren Dodge:
name is Brian. Okay, but he, I had horrible skincare when we first met or skincare. I had horrible skin when we first met. And I still don't have perfect skin. But my skin is so much better. I had cystic acne when we first met so bad that I was just taking on makeup. And I didn't know how to care for my skin. My mom showed me what she did growing up. And that was fine for her. But it didn't work for me. I had a lot of friends that were using a lot of steps. And it just felt so useless. And like, I don't want to buy five products to do this to my skin. He found me an aerobatic serum when I was when shortly after we'd met. And he was like, you know, maybe you should try something like this. Have you ever tried something natural and you know, medicinal for your skin? And I was like no, I just don't understand how something like that could work. And this was when I was 19. So I'm not 19 anymore. I've had many many years of working in this practice, but it it started changing my skin within just a few days. And I had never experienced something like that. So I started taking the ingredients in that serum which I can tell you what they were. Yeah, let's hear grapeseed oil ulang LNG essential oil, sweet orange oil, licorice root and there's one other To tree to tree to tree. And I think that maybe there was some evening primrose oil in there as well. And for those of you that know my skincare, yes, this did inspire a product inspired Venus serum. So this, as I was learning about this aromatic oil, I was breaking it down, why do these different ingredients work for my skin? How to have like, researching, reading, talking to anyone that could talk to me about these different ingredients at four skins specifically was really eye opening. But then there came a point where I was like, Oh, dang, I really want to make something like this. I'm like, What do I do? So then I started just trying to mimic what I had tried. And I'm not telling anyone to go buy a product and deconstruct it and make it themselves. But if, if a product teaches you something that is a way to like learn a whole nother layer halfway. Yeah, exactly. And over many years, I started adding different ingredients that I was falling in love with to the serum that I was making. And then eventually, I added What is it a hobo oil. And that shifted it completely again, and I added rose hip oil. And that shifted it completely again, and learning these different sort of differences in how the serum worked, just with that little shift, again, taught me a whole new level of about my skin. But also, I had started sharing it at this point with a few people. And I was realizing, Oh, this one serum can't work for everyone. And that was pretty cool. Because it was like, Okay, on to the next one. Yeah. How do I how do I do this again, but start from scratch. And yeah, well, and at that point, it was like seven years later, and I had already learned so much on my own. From my teachers, I'd started learning about different herbs and I didn't even have to like look into the world to be inspired by something I just had to look within. I had to sort of sit with myself. Listen to the people that were trying this product and like what they were craving that they weren't getting from it. And if they weren't trying it, what were they using that they weren't getting? What they wanted out of it. So it's a lot about a lot about listening. What I do a lot about
Christine:
Listen, I love the passion and the intimacy Yeah, I mean like you truly have found your your passion and just you can tell shines through what should we be doing with our skin? Like what steps should we be following? You know, should we be doing the cleanser and the toner and the moisturizer and the serum and the eye cream and the net cream and the crepey cream? And what should we be doing?
Lauren Dodge:
Um, I think it's gonna vary depending on the person. I don't want to tell everyone that they have just one way. I think it's really about finding a balance and what works for you. So again, I'm complicating the answer, but that's okay.
Christine:
You're here for
Lauren Dodge:
to learn. I'm the sort of the sort of like big this is going to work for most people is once or twice a day. At least once or not at least. But once or twice a day. cleansing your skin.
Christine:
We have to do it in the morning and at night.
Lauren Dodge:
Well if you're wearing yes i mean i i Okay, so truth Truth Truth here. Yeah. The truth. I typically wash my skin once a day. Okay, and it's usually at night. Yeah, me too. Yeah, the reason for that is that I feel a little grimy I feel a little this if I've worn makeup I rarely I rarely do now you don't need to thank you but it's taken a long time to feel so good. And that is actually what's inspired me to keep going with this is that as I felt better and I've seen other people felt better in their skin, it doesn't matter if they still feel like they want to wear makeup. Maybe they don't feel like they have to and just seeing people light up and feel uniquely appreciated in their skin is just gives me such
Christine:
so rewarding.
Lauren Dodge:
Yeah. But cleansing your skin at least once a day and not over cleansing over cleanse I mean So do
Christine:
we do we use the foaming or we do what do we what do we use it just again on the skin type.
Lauren Dodge:
It can depend on the skin type. I also will tell you that there's a lot of skincare cleansers out there that are not balanced to the skin's pH and that is a super fancy way of saying The skin naturally has an acidic nature. And if it is not being balanced by what you're putting on it, how you're cleansing it. You're going to end up with issues. Again, it's all about balance. Angry skin ink. I mean angry skin. Have you ever tried using a cleanser? And right afterwards? Your skin is like
Christine:
are tight? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I need something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah to. So moisture.
Lauren Dodge:
Typically, if your skin is reacting that way, it may not be the right product for you. It could just be like, That's the answer. It could also be that that particular product is not great. As far as its pH balance goes. The skin has a natural pH balance of 5.5. Usually, we all can range between like, I think it can sometimes be as low as four.
Christine:
So that's pretty acidic. Yeah.
Lauren Dodge:
So I was a balanced skin is right around the 5.5. So it's right in the middle. And that's a happy place. Most of my cleansers are going to be balanced in a way that it is not going to feel that super tight afterwards.
Christine:
So if it's balanced, then it doesn't matter if it's a foamy thing, or jelly thing.
Lauren Dodge:
I think it comes down to what you like, okay, honestly, yes, as long as it's balanced, as long as long as it's balanced. And as long as it feels good for you. And you're not reacting negatively to it. That I know that I'm like, giving these little things
Christine:
but great information. Yeah, we need the toner. Do we need that?
Lauren Dodge:
Yes, we do. Do not skip your token.
Christine:
Why do we need the toner.
Lauren Dodge:
So what a toner is going to do this is the first thing that I learned about a toner is that it's going to save you money on your serums and your moisturizers as much. Yeah, so that's number one. But then I have people saying well, yeah, but you're making me buy a toner. So am I saving money?
Christine:
I don't know. I don't know think that's the only reason I think we're about to find out what the real reason is? Yes.
Lauren Dodge:
So toners. Yes, they're going to help you spend less on your serums your moisturizers. But the bottom line is, is that a toner is going to help absorb ingredients that want to be absorbed, it's going to help create a barrier to some extent for some of those slower absorbing ingredients, it's going to regulate the product a little bit more that you're putting on next, so that you're not just kicking in the moisture. Okay, that makes sense.
Christine:
Yeah, it does make sense because I stopped using a toner recently I ran out, I thought I don't need that I'm just going to put my stuff on. But I definitely noticed a difference. It feels it feels
Lauren Dodge:
different. Well, it feels different. So depending also on the toner, if you're using something that's witch hazel based, which Hazel is really fantastic at helping reduce redness, which you're not going to have necessarily in a moisturizer or serum. And the the idea behind each product is different. So the point of a toner is that it's going to help with sort of preparing the skin for moisture. And that may sound silly to someone, but especially because we wear makeup, we work out we live in environments where we may sweat, the washing of the skin is so important that sometimes the layers that the acid mantle of the skin is super unhappy if you jump straight from a cleanser to a moisturizer or serum. Hey,
Christine:
makes sense. So it's kind of like the bridge. Yes,
Lauren Dodge:
actually, that is fantastic. That is a really, really good way to think about it is it bridges between these two very intense sort of moments in our skincare. This is a gentler form of how to regulate the absorption.
Christine:
Okay, so then what's next? Do we can we go straight to a serum or do we have to use a moisturizer before the serum
Lauren Dodge:
while again, it sort of depends, but I would say if you if you're someone that wants to just do the the core, you don't want the extras, I always say you can go to a moisturizer afterwards. If you're someone who needs the support of a serum serums really are about supporting who would need to see so congested skin combination skin acne prone skin, you're going to benefit a lot from a serum and it sounds counterintuitive because of it being an oil based thing. You're I mean I remember going through that in my mind before I understood and it's like the skin needs that moisture. It needs those oils in order to rebalance itself to be happy, sort of in that happy state. But not only that, the ingredients that are typically in a serum are stronger concentrates than what you have in a moisturizer so extracts that you Find in a serum are going to be at stronger amounts, where it's working on trying to get to those deeper layers of the skin. It's working on trying to improve cellular turnover. A moisturizer is literally usually just a moisturizer, there might be some additional extracts in there. My everlasting cream has some beautiful extracts in it. But it's because I know that there's going to be people that don't want all the steps. So it's mild in comparison to a serum, what you're going to find in a lotion or cream. At least in my line.
Christine:
What about aging skin,
Lauren Dodge:
aging skin, graceful aging, the way to age gracefully is really all about how you unfortunately, it's about good genes. That's a big part of it. But when also creating healthy habits for yourself, drinking, sleep, drinking lots of water, nutrition, absolutely. Exercise for aging skin for graceful beauty, I would say adding definitely adding a serum is a good step in a completely different way. So for that sort of congested combination type, the Venus serum that I make is perfect for that moon serum would be great at her Solstice serum would be great for the graceful aging. Both of those are working with things that happen with hormones shifting at different points, such as hyperpigmentation, which is when the skin I have some hyperpigmentation for the first time. And as it started occurring, I was like, do I want to try to get rid of this? I don't know. I'm kind of laughing. Just because like I've really tried to embrace my skin. I want people to embrace where they're at with their beauty and their skin. But yes, taking extra steps such as an eye cream, an ice serum,
Christine:
we have to do it all then well.
Lauren Dodge:
Some people are lucky and they don't. Yeah, I will. That's the honest truth. But I think for 90% of the population as we start to age. I don't. I hope that as I continue to age, I don't feel feel the fear that I know that some people do. I think that this is a this is a hard one. Actually, this is hard to talk about because I want everyone to feel that it's natural. I don't want them to feel that. Because you're getting laugh lines because you're getting smile lines because you're getting wrinkles around your eyes or around your like on your neck on your clavicle, wherever these wrinkles lines are happening. I don't want you to feel like there's something wrong with you.
Christine:
Yeah, it feels like your products are more about health. Yeah, well, health healthy, healthy skin, not so much. I mean, I know we're all beautiful everyone who use your product. But I mean, really, it's it's not about that I get what you're saying? Yeah, I think what I think your true spirit is coming through there. You know, you are healing. Genuine, you know, caring is coming through in that state.
Lauren Dodge:
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I, my biggest goal was what I do is I want everyone to feel beautiful, no matter who they are, no matter where they are in their life journey, no matter where they are in their journey with their skin. I think it's, it's so often we get caught up in what other people look like what we're supposed to look like, according to media, and what are you supposed to look like? That just doesn't even make sense? How are we supposed to know what we're supposed to look like? Yeah, it's more about how we feel right? Yes. Yeah. And I was gonna say like, No, I'm not a mental health expert. But I do feel like there is a component of being with your skin that offers some balance, when you're able to just appreciate when you're able to get into those. And that's what makes the ritual components so important. When you're present with your skin, you can sort of list it, it speaks to, you can hear you can see what's going on a little bit more clearly. And instead of layering and layering and layering and hoping that something works. I feel like I'm working on how do I guide people into that because I don't want someone to feel like they need to own everything. That's not that's, I mean, you can if you want to, but it's really about the core. So for someone who is ready. I like the word graceful. I like the word graceful before Beauty or graceful aging. Someone ready for that journey or in the middle of that journey, I would say best advice as far as my skincare practices go cleanse once or twice a day. If you are wearing makeup, definitely you're probably going to need a second time if you're not cleansing at night followed by a really beautiful toner. That's going to have some added hydration properties to it. Um, so aloe vera a bit of I really love working with burdock root in a toner eye it helps to bring moisture to the skin, marshmallow root as well. Watermelon, a lot of those are some of my favorite ingredients just across the board or melon. Yes, I have an obsession with watermelon in skincare. I tell us about it. It's juicy. I mean literally when you cut open or watermelon, it's just like the luxurious and juicy and just beautiful. But I mean, think about okay, one second, think about a watermelon slice, think about a watermelon slice. Think about the way that watermelon slice feels the second you bite into it. Okay, I'm there, you're there. It's I can't explain it beyond it's juicy. And it's fantastic. Because I think that a lot of plants and a lot of ingredients speak to us in those ways. And it's so obvious this is full of moisture This is full of and that bright pink color. It means there's tons of nutrients and antioxidants in there. And watermelon contains a lot of vitamins that are going to be helpful for the skin while we are aging, helpful for anyone no matter where they are in their journey. That's a
Christine:
surprise. It's
Lauren Dodge:
it feels good to get prizes. So yeah, carrot, watermelon, pumpkin. All of those things contain a lot of they're slimy
Christine:
and yeah, right? Well, the pumpkin, I'm thinking the inside of the pumpkin.
Lauren Dodge:
But the colors to if you just think about the colors, how bright and that that goes back to nutrition, how colorful is the food in front of you, that's probably going to be a pretty nutritious meal. So thinking about the colors going into the products is super important. But something with watermelon is really great for aging skin. So we've got a cleanser, we've got a juicy toner, get that moisture. For a serum, I would say definitely going with something like that it's going to have a brightening aspect with with age, our skin tends to dull a bit and we don't have that radiance. We don't have that suppleness naturally that we did in our youth. It's possible, but we just don't retain it the same way. The skin naturally doesn't produce new cells as fast as we did that in our college. Exactly, exactly. The collagen is breaking down. So something that's going to help balance the pigmentation of the skin. brightness in the skin. Things like licorice root are fantastic for brightening. I love our Solstice Vitamin C serum for graceful beauty. It has a really nice bright smell to it. It's lovely and light feeling on the skin. But you also still feel very hydrated when you're using it. And I will I will say I feel like you can almost skip a moisturizer. If you're using that zero. That's a good tip. Yeah, it has such a richness to it even though it feels light when it's going on the skin because of the vitamin C that we're using in there. And the other ingredients were using pomegranate oil, we're using sunflower oil, which has a ton of vitamin E naturally in it. I just feel like you can almost skip on moisturizer if you want to no matter where you are in your skincare journey. Yeah. So that's a that's a really simple
Christine:
we can do that. Yeah,
Lauren Dodge:
but I would also say an eye product is probably going to be very helpful. However, again, that vitamin C serum man it is it can be used on I always screw up this word mean decolletage on a day
Christine:
or day.
Lauren Dodge:
Yes, so like your clavicle and chest area. Yeah, there we go. It can be used on your neck it can be I have a friend that uses it on her breasts to help with stretching and eye. It can be used as specifically just around the mouth and around the eyes if you're not wanting to use it on your whole face, but it is a For Face Serum, so getting fancy doesn't have to break the bank if you find the right, if you find the right product. Yeah.
Christine:
Okay. Outside of routine skincare regimens and cleanliness and anti aging and beauty and just feeling good and healthy about yourself. Do you have any products that are helpful for specific conditions like rosacea or eczema? Do you have? Have you gotten into that arena?
Lauren Dodge:
A little bit, um, it's more about finding what's already in my existing line that works for that. Yeah, instead of creating something, too, I always like people to feel included. I like everyone to feel like, again, what I was saying about the vitamin C serum, I like people to feel like something will work for multiple things. Simplicity a lot of times is really beautiful. And skincare, we get carried away. And within sort of my core product line, I would say, yes, there are ingredients within the Venus serum, such as the burdock root I was talking about. Let's see, I have so many products. Now.
Christine:
I don't want to put you on the spot. I just don't know what I got to thinking about. It's okay. You know, I wonder I wonder if, you know, at Capital, integrative health, you know, sometimes we see people who have these coming to us, you know, and I know we have a nutrition team, and of course, medical providers here and wellness providers to offer them support on these conditions. But I'm thinking about, you know, this would be a nice adjunct if we, if we knew, you know, absolutely something.
Lauren Dodge:
Absolutely, yeah. So, I would like to I would like to be able to have a straightforward answer for that question. And I haven't quite defined defined those individual products yet within my line. So I don't want to like,
Christine:
it's okay, what we'll do is we will make sure we have your contact information, okay. If any of our listeners has a specific question for you, we can have that reach out to you at routes to the routes that will give the information that will
Lauren Dodge:
be really great because I don't like I never want I don't I don't want to be asked somebody. And yeah, if right now, I can't tell you the exact ingredient and which product it is. I don't want to tell you, we appreciate
Christine:
that integrity. What I'm super curious about and I don't know, our audience, you touched on it earlier, but if you would help us learn or understand or explain how you formulate and make your products in relation to the moon cycle.
Lauren Dodge:
Hmm. So I work with the planetary sort of bodies as a whole Sun Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, and yeah, it's become, it comes from my alchemical training. We sort of have this system of understanding a person's constitution based on the planetary bodies, and it sounds and it has some overlap with astrology. I was just
Christine:
gonna ask, does it do does it have to do with their birth date type does
Lauren Dodge:
have a similar? It does? Yeah, in fact, you just, you just said it, like their birth place time and where they were born, we place time and date. Right? Okay. So, the idea is that, in that training, we are taught that, and I feel so strongly about this part of my, my training because it feels more connected than a lot of other sort of pathways that are in the planetary astrology, I know hardly anything but this I know some stuff that's here. The idea is that when we are born, the heavens above lay an imprint on us and we lay an imprint on it. And that depending on where you are in the world, the time the day. The various planets Above us are always going to be shifting and changing. But on that, at that time on that day in that place. For example, when I was born, I have Venus moon and Saturn in my constitution as my primary guiding planetary features. Were connected to all of them, but sometimes things stick out a little bit more. And for me, Venus recite resides in my body. It helps me to understand my body And what I mean by that is that there are certain plants in the world that are very connected to the energies of Venus, things such as RoHS things such as what's another good one? I feel like burdock root is another really good one. sort of funny, in its sense. And my teachers would argue that that's probably more Mars. I was
Christine:
I don't know anything about this. I know a little bit just from hanging out with cool people like you. But I think when I think of I think of love like that love energy, and what what do we tear
Lauren Dodge:
down for me typically gives me that love. And Venus is also very nourishing, very nourishing, compassionate. And when you break open a burdock root, it's so soft and fibrous, and for the skin, it helps with the tissues that helps with nourishing. So for me, if I was to work with burdock root, I would definitely work with Venus. And, and
Christine:
this is how that energy side. So I was just getting excited. So this is how you decide what to make. Under what moon? Is that? helped me
Lauren Dodge:
sort of sort of? Well, no, okay, no. But it resonates with what you ask, because different times throughout the day also align with different planets. So you can say like, on a full moon, I make our everlasting cream on the full moon. And the reason for that is that the moon is very tied to the emotions, it's very tied to the bodily fluids, it's very tied to mental sort of stimulation, or relaxation. And for me, I feel like it's one of the easier sort of guiding planets that I say planets in quotes here, you can't see me but I do. Planets that we can work with, because it is so instinctual, we've grown up seeing the sun, we've grown up seeing the moon, if I was to say I made this everlasting cream every day, or once a month, on Saturn Day in Saturn, our
Christine:
what would that mean to you? I don't know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that sounds cool. But I don't know what that mean.
Lauren Dodge:
Well, and I guess, again, it comes down to intention. My intention with that particular product, or when I decide to work in a certain phase of the moon, or a different planet, is that it's helping to guide me a little bit more deeply into a process, it's helping to translate and transfer that energy to the wearer, or the Dorner or the user.
Christine:
So it's more about you, not the product, it's both. It's both isn't a transference of energy from you, too. Yeah.
Lauren Dodge:
So if you think about the way that a normal distillation system works, and you have the plant body with whatever fluid, you have a tube or a vessel that runs upward, and then there's a another tube that runs off of it, I'm trying to explain this simply going back to chemistry, another tube that runs off of it, and drops down so that whatever you're, when you're distilling, you are bringing something up in temperature, and basically creating a had, the words are escaping me at the moment. Imagine you're creating a cloud, okay? Within this vessel, you're you're sort of then that fluid is going to reconvince and come over. And that is your final product. When I'm working with the moon, it feels very much like that. It feels like I'm the physical vessel. But I'm put like, the moon is shining down. It's part of the energy that's like, helping fuel the process. It's helping guide the process. So it is the fire source, it is the sometimes maybe it's the water source that I'm working with. And that is distilling upwards into an idea. The intention lives there. And as that intention builds, and I'm and I'm actually creating this product, it distills down, it condenses into this other thing, and then it becomes the product I see. So there's a there is sort of this integrated. It's not it's not really about me, it's it's but I enjoy it. Not really about me that yeah, it's about connecting to to something greater, something bigger and the moon is pretty easy to work with. It's in the full moon especially it's pretty easy to work with. We see it every month. Left. Yes.
Christine:
Yeah. Lucky. Yes. Yeah.
Lauren Dodge:
And anyone listening that just heard that amazing description of distilling? I'm sorry, I didn't articulate it all that well, but that's sort of the gist of it. I feel like it's a collaboration. No matter if I'm working with a plant or an energy. It's always a collaboration.
Christine:
I love that about your stuff. And you just feel so good.
Lauren Dodge:
It does feel good. I'm a little nervous talking about it just because it's it's hard to articulate some time.
Christine:
Yeah, well, it's your passion. And so sometimes it's really tough to lasso that up into words.
Lauren Dodge:
Yeah. I'm also a feeler and it I can feel things so fully, but yes, our the articulation component of it is, it's a lot harder.
Christine:
Yeah. Let's ask a fun question. I'm reading. Jen, our marketing director comes up with these fun things. Credit. Thanks, Jen. If you were stranded on a desert island. What skincare products would you hope to have with you? Oh, geez.
Lauren Dodge:
Okay, first answer that came to mind is I is it and well, is it endless? Is this an endless
Christine:
supply? It's an endless supply. Okay.
Lauren Dodge:
My husband would be so ashamed of me. Because my first answer is I would take water and endless supply of water can how
Christine:
smart you are and unexpected he would be.
Lauren Dodge:
He'd be like, No, you can build the fire you can you can create freshwater. And my I don't have those survival skills. So I would take water. And I say that because sure we can clean ourselves with it. But really, hydration is the number one thing with any at any point in your life with your skincare, hydration, hydration, hydration, hydration, and I say that I'm not always the best at it. But definitely water you are
Christine:
full of surprises. I love that answer. You should get this creamer. But how simple and real and perfect was that answer? I love that.
Lauren Dodge:
I couldn't pick one. Maybe Maybe
Christine:
they're also good. Okay, how can our listeners learn more about you? Where can they find out more about fruits to the roots and find out about what you're doing in the world? How can they contact you? What do you have going on any special events? What should we know about fruits to the roots and Lauren? What are you up to?
Lauren Dodge:
I'm so excited to answer this. I can be found at fruits to the roots.com that is fruits with an S fruits to the roots.com roots with an S i You can find me on social media. I don't I'm not the biggest fan of the F book.
Christine:
Oh yeah, yeah. We have a community on there. I think that's really the only time I'm looking at it. But I think the community is an important resource for people so yeah. Oh goodness. And yes, but I know but we won't we don't You don't have to be okay. Well, yeah, I find Yeah.
Lauren Dodge:
You can find me on Instagram. I am playing with a little bit of tick tock but it's not it's more to get me out of my comfort zone. I tend to turn into the witch in the woods or you know, I I tend to like turn into this person that is just talking to plants and trees and walking in the grass and feeling the wind in my hair. See the Real Lauren. Check her out on Tik Tok. So, I definitely am going to start doing a little bit more of Tik Tok. But yeah, Instagram is great. My website is great. I am a Maryland Frederick, Maryland is where I am. And I'm offering sound baths weekly in Frederick, Maryland at a wonderful community studio called give rise studio. And right now that's usually on Sundays at four. That's every Sunday every Sunday. Wow. Okay,
Christine:
that's great to know.
Lauren Dodge:
I'm also working with Fox haven in Jefferson, Maryland, which I've been working with them for a few years now. And so you can find me doing sound baths there and we didn't even talk about the sound boss, but that's okay. We can
Christine:
we can spend a couple of minutes talking about sound baths because I had the opportunity to join you for a sound bath at Fox Haven Farm in the barn. And yeah, you should share that were really, really Good stuff
Lauren Dodge:
well, and it's so what I realized was missing sort of from my online presence as far as our our business when is that? I don't think beauty is just about one thing. I don't want to be just a product manufacturer for people. So I've actually spent the last year and a half reworking our website. And by the time you're hearing this, it will be launched, which is really exciting. Still same website, but brand new, sort of look and feel and flow. I realized that people want to know more, they want to feel like they can explore more,
Christine:
maybe like, like we do here at Capitol Integrative Health.
Lauren Dodge:
Yeah, dive is diving exactly in. And that's yes, going deeper into anything that you're excited about, especially. I feel like with skincare, if you're putting it on your skin everyday, you should really no more than and I feel like I give a lot on our website. But there was that component I needed to sort of it was time. We've been doing this we've had the same website for 10 years. So it was time. So in that read sort of organization of the website, I realized there's a ritual component to what I do that I can't really translate in so many words easily as we've talked about. And I've been offering sound baths for the last about three years basically since COVID. started I started offering them through zoom for people
Christine:
can you share with our audience what briefly what I found that
Lauren Dodge:
is yeah, I'm so a sound bath is a form of meditation using instruments, specifically vibrational instruments. What makes it very different than like going in sort of absorbing live music of sorts is that it is mindful, intentional. Meditation isn't for everyone. And I think that what's really strange about sound bathing is a can be for everyone, anyone I've played for no matter how skeptical, they have almost immediately fallen into this really calm space. And what it is, is, I work a lot with crystal bowls and Himalayan bowls. I'm starting to do some drumming work as well, which I'm really excited about my husband and I built a drum this year. Yeah, so it's, it's so beautiful. So we're working on getting some other sounds going. But what makes it so easy and intuitive is that in itself guided for the most part, you just have to be present with yourself willing to be open to the sound to the vibration. And as the vibration fills the space that you're in, it can sort of shift your mental state into it, it works with your brainwaves to put you into a calmer state, a more relaxed state, it helps with sleep, it can help with even getting into higher states of relaxation, where cellular regeneration is more easily possible. And so I started, is that good? That's great.
Christine:
That's great. I was gonna ask how they're typically an hour.
Lauren Dodge:
So mine, I have a hard time doing more than an hour. Partially because I'm seeing that people do start to get a little antsy. The commitment to doing a sound bath longer than that, I think a lot of people, I want it to be accessible. And there's some sound bats out there, though, that'll go for like three to four hours. Oh, wow. And those, I mean, you can really get into some wild states where you are just, but even in an hour long I've I've I've I've talked to people that have had experiences where they've had ancestors, like visit them and you know, pass along a message. And I've had people that have my husband had brain surgery. I don't know if you know that I did not know that. My husband had brain surgery in December last year. And we didn't really make it public knowledge he, he'll be fine with this. We didn't make it public knowledge at the time because it it feels like there's a lot of sympathy cards played when things like that happens. And that's not what we wanted. We wanted to go through this on our own. And it was hard. It was really hard, didn't want it to be public. But the thing that came out of that was realizing how important the sound bathing was for us personally, and that I needed to start finding places in person that I could do it regularly for people. Oh,
Christine:
thank you so much for sharing it. Yeah,
Lauren Dodge:
I mean the amount of healing that he and I were both individually able to do, but also inspire in. I don't know, in a greater sense. With his his process, it was pretty profound in a lot of ways.
Christine:
It's sad to say that this was part of his healing journey if post surgery.
Lauren Dodge:
Yeah, I think so. Absolutely. And it still is part of his healing at the moment. So great. Yeah, it's so good. So, yeah, we're really excited to be offering this because it feels like a component of the ritual element with healing and skincare. It sort of ties everything together. So now we have our beauty. We have our alchemy, we have our ritual, and we have a bit of sciency stuff coming to taking it to the next level. Yes. And it's been sort of hard to identify what that next level would be until all of a sudden the soundbite thing became so important. So
Christine:
we are super excited and honored to have you join us for our next heal day here at Capitol Integrative Health Quarterly, we have a retreat for our entire team. It's called our health education and learning day heal day. And you're going to be joining us for the sound bath. So I'm super excited. So much for agreeing to do that, with us. Absolutely excited for you to share your gifts with our team. Me too. So first to the roots.com. What were the places where you doing this? Again,
Lauren Dodge:
at give rise studio in Frederick, Maryland at Fox Haven Farm in Jefferson, Maryland. And those are the places I'm going to be working regularly with. Okay, I'm also trying to identify more DC area space.
Christine:
And then lastly, just in case because I know if I were listening to this, I would want to know, am I going to be able to talk to her?
Lauren Dodge:
Yes.
Christine:
Do you have a chat on your website or body? Okay,
Lauren Dodge:
so I do have a chat and you will chat with me? There are a few automated answers. If I'm not available, like right now I wouldn't be available. There are a few automated answers, but you will get me it is literally just me and my husband running this business. It's interesting because at different points, it's felt bigger than that. But you will always talk to me. You can email or there's a contact form on our page. And that also goes there's a contact form on our web page. That will also go directly to my email address. So I will always reply to you. Okay. And if someone wants to work with me, that is probably the easiest place to reach me. I would say reach out on social media say hi. Introduce yourself to but let's talk through email first, and then we'll we'll get going from there.
Christine:
Okay. Well, thank you, Lauren. We love having small business, beautiful, heart centered, mindful people doing great work and health and beauty. And this is our first dipping our toe into the beauty. Good. So we're honored to have you for that. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank
Lauren Dodge:
you so much for having me. I'm really fun.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Thank you for taking the time to listen to us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to leave us a review. It helps our podcasts to reach more listeners. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our next episodes and conversations. And thank you so much again for being with us.