Episode 66: Using Intuitive Eating to Overcome Diet Culture with Holly Zink, CNS
Show Summary:
In a culture where diets and headlines around which foods are good or bad are all around us, how can we get re-connected to our body and intuitively eat?
Today’s conversation with Holly ZInk is all about intuitive eating and how it can be used as a powerful tool to eat in alignment with our body’s true needs. Holly is one of our own functional nutritionists who works with her patients by prioritizing a healthy relationship with food while also using nutrition as a therapeutic tool.
This is a conversation for anyone who feels disconnected from their body cues and wants to learn how intuitive eating can be used to better understand what their body needs to feel its best.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction
2:39 - What is intuitive eating?
9:34 - How do we get connected to why we eat?
15:16 - Using therapeutic diets vs intuitive eating
20:18 - Practical steps to start with intuitive eating
26:44 - Intuition vs. food engineering
31:11 - How to incorporate intuitive eating into your life
36:08 - Resources to learn more
38:21 - What thing under $20 has transformed Holly’s health?
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Full Transcript:
Holly Zink:
You know, there's a lot of emotion that goes along with, with food as well, like you, you mentioned, it's, you know, its culture, its its tradition, its connection is how we show love to the people that we care about. And we nourish each other with food, and we use it to celebrate. So it's really tricky, I think internally to tease out like, am I, is there a physiological reason for me wanting to eat right now? Is it because there's a party and you're supposed to eat at a party or I smell something really delicious? And I just want to have some, even though I'm not hungry right now. Am I thirsty? Am I tired? Am I bored? Like, there's so many internal cues that we're always getting? And so it can be really tricky to tease that out. And so I think that's also part of why we we look externally for answers, because we haven't been taught to really tease out those internal cues.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Today's conversation with one of our amazing nutritionists here at CIH, Holly Zink. NK is all about intuitive eating, and how it can be used as a powerful tool to eat in alignment with your body's true needs. Holly is one of her own functional nutritionist who works with her patients by prioritizing a healthy relationship with food, while also using nutrition as a therapeutic tool. This is using food as nourishment rather than punishment. I am Dr. Andrew Wong, co founder of capital Integrative Health. This podcast is dedicated to changing the consciousness around what it means to be healthy, and understanding and digging deep into the root causes of both disease and wellness. This conversation with Holly today, I really enjoyed and it's for anyone who feels disconnected from their body cues and wants to learn how intuitive eating can be used to better understand what their body needs to feel its absolute best. Welcome Holly to the podcast again for round two here.
Holly Zink:
Hi, thanks for having me, again, I'm happy to be here
Dr. Andrew Wong:
are so glad that you're here. And as as I think some of our listeners may know, you're one of our amazing integrative and functional nutritionist here at ch but even before you started practice here, you have kind of researched and done a lot of work with intuitive eating, which is our topic today. And I was just talking with you offline about what does that kind of mean, because I don't know too much about that I was talking about about pizza, since that's a comfort food that I think a lot of people enjoy. But let's just talk first real basic about what what is intuitive eating, how how you kind of first in your journey candy to use that both, maybe for yourself and for your patients?
Holly Zink:
Yeah, well, just kind of to your point about pizza, it doesn't take comfort food off the table. So just to be clear on that. It's actually a framework that was developed by some registered dieticians, Evelyn tripolia, and Elise rash. But what it does really is it kind of empowers you to listen to your body, its cues, your internal signals, whether it's your instinct or emotion, and kind of logically tease it out. So that you can start to build a healthy relationship with food and with your body. And also really encourages you to kind of put up a boundary between those internal cues and the external cues that we get and about diet and our, you know, the size of our body and what we should or shouldn't be. And it's really important, because we know that, you know, the vast majority of diets tend to fail, they might be short term, very effective. But long term people tend to if their goal is to lose weight, they tend to gain the weight back. We know some of the kind of markers of health like the BMI has limitations in terms of its utility, if it's used kind of in a standalone in isolation from you know, the bigger picture and all the other kind of markers we can look at. And what happens when when we're using like various restrictive diets and kind of numbers like the the number on the scale, it starts to create stigma and restriction because those are kind of oversimplified markers of health. And it starts to assign a moral value to food. So like vegetables are good ice cream is bad. And then we get we kind of assign moral value to ourselves when we eat the vegetables or the ice cream. So I was good today because they had a salad or I was bad because they eat ice cream. So it kind of helps take that kind of that that away from from eating and really helps to, again, kind of put the power back in the individual's hands. And it's really this framework is based on 10 principles to help you kind of achieve achieve that so they include things like rejecting diet mentality, honoring your hunger and your fullness, which sounds really simple, but it's pretty pretty complicated because we've really been taught to tune out of and really just Connect from our bodies, signals and really listen to what everyone else out there in the world is telling us. And really finding satisfaction in what you're eating, which I think a lot of times when we're dieting, we don't, we don't feel satisfied, we don't enjoy the foods. But it also, you know, it really encourages feeling kindness towards your emotions, honoring your body by using gentle movement and gentle nutrition. So it kind of brings in a lot of psychology around around while you're eating while you're choosing what you choose. And it gives you this unconditional permission to eat, if you're hungry, and to eat, what food you really want. And but it with kind of the education about nutrition and how it's going to fuel your body. So it's not really a free for all, which it sounds like what you hear like unconditional permission to eat whenever you're hungry, whatever you want. It's a lot more nuanced than that. But again, like I said, I think the really important part of it is that it's putting the power back in the hands of the individual, it gives you a responsibility really to do a lot of work and digging. But I think that's what I tried to do in practice in general is really kind of empower people versus having people come say, to just tell me what to eat. Tell me how much of what time of day, because I can't really, I can't tell you exactly what's right for you. And so I think it's a really important part of healing and healing your relationship with food. And, you know, I think to the other part of your question was how I started working with it. So I did have a private practice where I worked with families in the past, and working with children and pre adolescents and teens, you know, developmentally, they have a very, like black and white thinking, it's really hard to get that nuance across. So when I would be saying things like, you know, this, vegetables going to be great for your eyesight, or your heart health or whatever, they would think that's all they could eat. And like I had some children going to a birthday party. And instead of having the food at the party, they asked Mom for celery, celery sticks, and I just kind of clicked that, you know, I was trying to be gentle, but it wasn't really working. And so we needed a different strategy to approach it. And so I found this, you know, this plus some, you know, a big part of it is mindfulness, you may have heard of mindful eating it kind of it kind of permeates through all of intuitive eating, I think. But I think those tools and like having kids really kind of tap into that they like to be curious, they like to like, think about why you know, why they think a certain way, why somebody's told them something? And what did they really think they like to be given that autonomy and that respect that they have some intuition. And so I found it to be really powerful in working with children.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
That that was an amazing answer. I feel like now I can go into sub questions based on that answer for the rest of this podcast here. And it was interesting, because intuitively, since I'm going to use that pun, I felt like, let me just let Holly talk about this because it sounds like you're you know, a fountain of knowledge on this, and you have a lot of personal and professional experience with this. There is that I guess, like you said, the groundwork of intuitive eating is mindfulness, it's really being in touch with your body and how that food is, you know, coming into someone's into your mouth and you know, the smells and the and the feeling, you know, connected to the earth you know, when you're eating and things connected to the people you might be eating with, and maybe even connecting to like you said the reasons for why you're even eating that food or nourishing yourself to begin with, rather than being on externally, you know, mandated diet or something, whether that external forces society, or some message or a nutritionist that's giving someone a diet right, so So let's let's kind of dive in a little bit more into the, into the aspect of which I feel like is a super key point is the internal factors that are involved in someone's ability to empower themselves to feel, you know, nourished and to nourish themselves versus the external factors that we might think of in terms of we go to see a nutritionist, it's like, hey, Holly, can you put me on a diet? What should I be on today? You know?
Holly Zink:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I think number one is, and it's I think I already kind of touched on this a little bit was just like recognizing when you're hungry or when you're full, and not feeling guilty because you're hungry and not feeling like that's a bad thing. But our hunger and really tapping into that and kind of what level of hunger and you know, there's a lot of emotion that goes along with with food as well. Like you. You mentioned, it's, you know, it's culture. It's It's tradition, its connection is how we show love to the people that we care about. And we nourish each other with food, and we use it to celebrate. So it's really tricky, I think internally to tease out like, am I? Is there a physiological reason for me wanting to eat right now? Is it because there's a party and you're supposed to eat at a party or I smell something really delicious? And I just want to have some, even though I'm not hungry right now? Am I thirsty? Am I tired? Am I bored? Like, there's so many internal cues that we're always getting? And so it can be really tricky to tease that out. And so I think that's also part of why we, we look externally for answers, because we haven't been taught to really tease out those internal cues. And we've been taught to look for this very objective, like, here's a number have this much protein, have this many calories, do this much exercise to burn it off. And it makes it simplified, but it because we're not so simple, and we have these emotions mixed with instinct mixed with physiological symptoms, or signs of what we what we really need. They just kind of they don't, they don't match. So you know, externally, we're hearing things from our parents, as a starter from doctors from nutritionists about what we should or shouldn't be doing. And I think a lot of times, it's, there's not enough time spent and explaining, you know, exactly how nutrition is supportive for your health, and what choices might be the best for you in what moments. And I think, because there's not as much, you know, time spent in like, a professional like setting, it again, becomes over simplified, and people just think they have to restrict, but teachers are telling kids all the time, what, what is good versus what is bad. Parents are telling kids finish your initial dinner there, you know, you have to clean your plate, or no dessert until you have eaten all your vegetables, or we're not having snacks because we don't want to over eat. And, you know, I think it's in general, it's not that there's any ill intent. But I think we're missing the mark, when it comes to how we talked, talk to each other and ourselves about about food and our bodies. It's,
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I remember Holly when I was in grade school, and I was sitting at a table, and we had servers and waiters. And it was like this whole thing where we had to taste each food, you know, and I just remember, smelling these peas, like, you know, there's like frozen peas or whatever. And they were boiled. And they they smelled really gross to me. And I just remember very vividly as a kid, you know, intuitively, I was like these, I don't want to eat these peas. But I had to write because that was the rule and I threw them up, I literally vomited. And that that's something that even to this day, it's like almost one of those things where, you know, that intuition wasn't listened to. So, you know, now I'm kind of like, I can see where this kind of is a very powerful medicine to really use your intuition. The body knows, you know, in a way, even as a kid, it's like, oh, well, I'm a kid. So what do I know, I'm supposed to follow the rules, but, but my body knew. And I didn't or couldn't listen my body at that time. But that that kind of thing, I think happens, whether externally through a rule or through sort of this driven by some expectation for Yeah, we should eat XYZ, like you said, there's a moral judgment to this, you know, I think in that situation was more like, don't waste the food. Try it, you know, but another funny story, I don't know how funny it is. But um, you know, there was this really disgusting potato salad, you know, that the school had served, and it's like, you know, it's like one of those bright yellow, you know, like yellow, number five, you know, it's probably like one of those things, like, it's too yellow to the actual, like, you know, food. It's like, okay, I probably don't want to eat that. And I just remember one of my classmates asking me at the time, like, Would you eat this potato salad for a million dollars, you know, and stuff. And basically, I was like, no, because my intuition is telling me it's bad for me. And I feel like that's probably my first foray into integrative health. It's like, I'm not gonna listen to, you know, what the conventional mindset of Yeah, I'm just gonna, you know, make a million dollars from my my friend who doesn't have that money prize. $1 right. And you know, to eat something that my body is telling me, that is not good for me. So, um, so it sounds like there's internal and external forces at play. What do you think about sort of medically, let's say someone has a health condition Can Is it okay for them to be prescribed a diet? You know, and those situations are? Where do you see the role of of like, you know, elimination diet or nutrition plans versus Intuitive Eating where there may be different seasons for different, different approaches?
Holly Zink:
Yeah, absolutely, I, you know, I hear we use a lot of therapeutic diets in our practice. And I do too, I think feeling out the individual and figuring out whether what their relationship with food is a little bit before you start to impose restrictions is important. And really explaining to them that it's really, a lot of times with an elimination diet, for example, there's not a clear allergy. So that's a case where you really do need to restrict and avoid certain foods. But with an elimination diet, a lot of times it's, I kind of tried to frame it more as like, let's get some information about how your body's responding to different foods, it's not intended that you're going to have to be restricted forever, and make it really clear and continue working with them on that. When it comes to different conditions, like just talking about, like, diabetes, for example. You know, I think these, they can be really powerful they can, you know, therapeutic diets can be medicine, for sure. But I think always tapping into the, the, you know, the idea of like this, you know, making the choice in the moment, being mindful, taking a pause really, before you start to eat, because I think a lot of it is teasing out those habits, and why those habits are there in the first place. So I think it's a lot of digging emotionally. I think for a lot of people, especially when it comes to like a condition like diabetes, where you have to, you know, reduce sugar and, and kind of have this really balanced meal at certain times of day to help kind of get your metabolism back on track. That can feel really, really hard for a lot of people. So sometimes it's a matter of taking it slowly. And kind of pairing with like, well, what is this emotion? Where is it coming from? What What have you been, you know, what have been the external cues that you've been hearing about eating in the past? Why are you thinking that you're bad when you don't eat a overall balanced meal, and just give up like it, there's a lot of ways that it can be applied. And it isn't, there isn't like a, you know, I mentioned there are 10 principles, there isn't a specific route that you have to take to work through those 10 principles. And really, you can take one that feels like it's most appropriate for somebody in that moment and apply it and work through it. And I think I've you know, it kind of is good timing. Virtu days out, we're recording two days out from Thanksgiving. And there are a lot of people with these, you know that we've talked about the way that these different, bringing foods in abundance that can be really nourishing for them really support blood sugar, or nutrient deficiencies, or whatever it may be. I've heard people really emotional going into Thanksgiving, not knowing how they're going to feel connected to their families, while they're having to like have a separate meal. And really like kind of taking that pressure off and taking the stress off that, you know, in that moment, there's a lot of value in connecting with your family. And the stress of not connecting with your family in that moment is really probably worse than just having a piece of pie with your turkey, right, and then come back to the habits you're building at the next meal. And that's where I think Intuitive Eating is really powerful, because it takes a lot of the pressure off to be perfect. And it allows you to tap into what's going to nourish you in that moment. And there's more than just the nutrients of food that will nourish you. And I think that's an important important piece of bringing Intuitive Eating together with those therapeutic diets.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, that's great. I used to say, and I still I feel believe this, say this is that the most important ingredient in any food is connection, you know, connection with each other or eating with someone eating by yourself connection with yourself, you know, connection with the breath with the gratitude for the food, like where did it come from, who made the food, you know, was planted or you know, all these things in this connection is really grounding us in a way so that it opens up that, you know, door to intuition, which is really one of our most powerful allies, I would say in navigating this world of, you know, especially with Google and you know, any search of like any nutrition guru out there, you know, Doctor nutritionist, you know, everyone's telling everyone what to eat, like you said, and I think just going back to, you know, our own bodies and the wisdom of that intuition. It sounds like it is the way to go. So let's say someone's going for a holiday, you know, dinner or something like that, or oh, we're just going out to eat or, you know, just at the grocery store, or even maybe, and in the, in the giant or something. What? Where do you? Where do someone starts with intuitive eating? What are some practical steps to kind of start with it?
Holly Zink:
Um, yeah, well, so in terms of getting started, I think, you know, we touched on mindfulness in the beginning, I think that is a huge part of it is slowing down. And being curious and taking a pause, taking a deep breath even, and just calming your nervous system for a second and really trying to be curious about what your body's telling you. You know, in terms of making like food choices, certainly you can get guidance from a nutritionist or you know, dietitian and about like, what foods will be really nourishing, and then start to just take it a step at a time, I kind of see intuitive eating as a long term, lifelong experiment, really, because your needs are going to change over time, for one thing, and you're always shifting and changing and growing. So the way that your body's talking to you and how you're tapped into that is going to change over time, too. And so it kind of depends on where the person is, I think I'm struggling to find a good single starting point in terms of intuitive eating. But I think that mindfulness is key, like tuning in about why am I making this choice right now, if you're in the grocery store, you know, maybe it's just that you aren't used to shopping that outer perimeter of the store, you're not as familiar with the fruits and vegetables, so maybe taking a second to walk over there and just become, just look around. Even if you don't buy something like, it's kind of similar to introducing new foods to kids just seeing it and be at, the more it becomes familiar, the easier it's going to be to make those choices. And I think not feeling overwhelmed, like you have to do it all at one time, is another important key to it. And just taking one step at a time making one change at a time using one principle at a time. And I think it seems pretty simple in when you're just saying it. But again, coming back to the idea of tuning into your hunger, your hunger cues, you know, we have so many different hunger cues, and some people are searching out, they never feel hungry, they don't even realize when they're hungry. So with that, just starting with making sure you're having a couple, like three solid meals a day on a schedule. And over time, as your body gets used to that you're going to start to feel those hunger cues again, and then you can tap into it a little more easily. But even there's a scale, like a hunger scale, where you can kind of say, well, my stomach's a little grumbling, or I feel a little empty, it's probably time to eat now or in or soon. Versus like, when you're starting to feel shaky, or sweaty or fatigued, where your blood sugar has dropped a little too low, and your body is just screaming, I need energy, you've waited a little too long. So getting curious about that. And also on the other end of the spectrum, like when you're starting to get full throughout your meal. So again, with that, you have to be mindful, you have to slow down and to really tap into that. And I think that is really the hardest part, when it comes to hunger is really giving it the time and energy that it needs. But I think it's one of the first places to start, because we are so out of touch with it.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah. And then of course, at that level 10 It becomes hangry, right? It's like from hunger to hangry scale.
Holly Zink:
Exactly.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
That's, like maybe less than to it and more like in your face, like, Oh, I gotta eat that pizza right now, because I'm so hungry or something like that, you know?
Holly Zink:
Yeah. And that's when you that is, that's when you reach for those really process simple carbs, because it's quick energy. So it does, it does make it harder if you let your body get to that point. So really tuning into that can really help make changes where you have more time and energy to put into choosing what you want.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So ironically, not necessarily focusing right away on the macro, you know, composition of foods, or how many calories something is or whether something is good or bad from a judgmental perspective. But actually, being more intuitive about both the food and your body relation to the food might actually make that person more mindful, which would lead to better healthy choices. It sounds like it could it could do that anyway.
Holly Zink:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like you said, when appropriate, I think it really depends on the the individual, the person who's really there in front of you when you're trying to kind of figure out what might be the best way to approach it. But I think for a lot of people, you know, it's actually imperative that they start with this piece before we talk about the what really getting in touch with what those those internal cues are.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
And a little disclaimer here, we're not recommend Doing an intuitive eating diet plan writers like that, like, you must be intuitive, you know, because sometimes people want to follow some program. And that's fine, too. It sounds like
Holly Zink:
exactly, yeah. And I think there are healthy ways to go about following a program that really depends on the person. And I think that's, that's the thing about the intuitive eating is it's not even, it's not really even a diet plan. It's just a way of connecting with yourself and learning about yourself. But some people already feel comfortable there. And they don't necessarily need to do a whole lot of work and digging on it. And they might feel they might feel like just I just need a little bit of guidance on like, the macros, and then that helps me make sure I'm getting all the nutrients I need or something along those lines. So you're right, it's a it's a personal
Dr. Andrew Wong:
thing. And then And then, of course, people with celiac disease should try to avoid gluten. Oh, yes. You know, absolutely. There are certain more black and white.
Holly Zink:
Yeah, there are certain medical conditions like a true allergy to peanuts or celiac disease, you know, there are certainly places where it's really important to avoid specific foods. But in the absence of that, it's, it's, you know, it's not that those have to be off the table all the time. That it can be nourishing to minimize certain foods as well. So kind of teasing out where that falls for each person.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I have a question about intuitive eating, about about sort of the hijacking of our tastebuds and our intuition by the food industry. So one of the questions I have is, you know, if I'm craving a slice of pizza, is that my intuition? Or is that my food? You know, I mean, the tastebuds getting hijacked by industry, you know,
Holly Zink:
that's actually a really a great question. And it can kind of comes to the idea of finding satisfaction in your food. Because it is really satisfying the fat from the cheese, the carbs from the cross. It's a really satisfying satiating food. And so I think that's where, you know, if you really want a piece of pizza, sometimes just having a piece of pizza, but also having like something else on the site, whether it gets one of the simple things, if you're ordering out, is getting a side salad, right, it's going to help you feel more satisfied longer, because you're getting fiber is going to help slit on the absorption of carbohydrates from the cross. So it's going to give you a little bit of balance in that meal. So that's another place where like, you have the opportunity to make the choice about, about what you're eating in that moment. And you can choose the pizza and choose to have this out, or you could just have the pizza, I know I might be a little hungry later, or I'll come back to my habits at the next meal. But if you choose not to have the pizza, but you really are craving it That tastes like tastes, the plays a role for sure in why we want to eat, that you're craving that flavor, or the texture of the pizza, if you're denying that you're really gonna rebel eventually, against that restriction, and over ate most likely have a whole pizza versus a piece of pizza, or Yeah, try eating other things, too, and overeat other things because you're trying to avoid the pizza. So I think, really, again, it's that idea of kind of, you can have whatever you want in that moment, but you can also use the knowledge that you're gaining about your body about how foods support your health, to make a choice that that's right for you.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I think this kind of this is a good excuse to bring in some traditional Chinese medicine principles about how when you suppress your energy, whether that's like a desire to eat, whatever, you know, there's some consequence to that, you know, essentially right, the energy gets blocked, so then it's kind of find another channel to exit or to essentially flow in a different way. So, I feel like that is kind of what you were saying there. If I wanted to just, you know, we want to talk about it from an energy flow pattern that you know, the the spirit or you know, the the person is kind of just saying, Okay, I want to eat something and then if not listening to you know, body's desires are cues that's going to result in some something down the road where they're going to overeat maybe in the next meal or something like that. Exactly, yeah. That's a great parallel I like that connection. Yeah, so we'll do some acupuncture everyone that to foster intuitive eating as well. And then so I it sounds like anyone could do intuitive eating and there's different practices some key you know, players like like mindfulness, slowing down, chewing our food, listening to our bodies, listening to what we want, you know, in a way and maybe even figuring out ways to balance that and it doesn't sound like Intuitive Eating stops at the at the start of the meal like making those food choices. It sounds like it's throughout the meal like Am I still hungry or my full or even after the meal do I feel great After this meal, do I feel bloated? You know, all these things, it sounds like intuition really spans the gamut of all the different, you know, pre during and post eating?
Holly Zink:
Absolutely, yeah, I think you really, it can, that intuition about, like how you're feeling from your food really can extend 24 hours a day, right? Like, am I sleeping well, to save energy that feels kind of sustained throughout the day. And you can use it to make tweaks that can really help you feel better, or, you know, you can kind of pay attention if certain foods make you not feel so great. So I think that that kind of tuning in is just such a vital part of it, and recognizing the impact food does have on us.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
So let's go into a intuitive question. Now. That's what I'm feeling about you, or what do you do for intuitive eating? Or how do you in terms of your kind of personal nutrition habits? If you don't mind? Just kind of I think the audience be curious. I'm kind of curious about that. How do you kind of incorporate this into your life with you and your family? Or you know, whoever you're eating with? Etc?
Holly Zink:
Oh, yeah, that's a that's a good question. I think, well, when I, when I started using it, I think I really needed it personally, when I started using it in practice, I had just, you know, relatively newly out of out of school and getting my license. And I think, you know, when, when you're going through school, there's a lot of data, objective information about nutrition. And again, coming back to that idea of black and white thinking, I was really starting to, I think, develop a little bit of like, I can't, I can't have the cake.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah.
Holly Zink:
So I think for me, it's really helped me find a balance. And it's, it's most more recently, I think, I've kind of hit a little bit more of a stride with it, where I feel more relaxed with the choices I'm making. But I think, you know, for me, the, the big thing was to learn the information, listen to what I how I felt when I kind of followed certain certain patterns of eating, and decide, you know, what felt right to me, I know, it seems kind of vague to answer in that way. But I have had to work on kind of rejecting, like, the culture, this, I've deleted a lot of things off social media, because I was seeing all of these like before and after and eat less carbs, intermittent fast. And for me, that was actually really driving kind of a disordered relationship with food. So for me, I have to have I have to be more gentle with myself. And I think that was really that that is another piece of that I think that's hard for a lot of people is kind of being kind to yourself about what you're feeling and what you're dealing with this you're going through it. So for me that was a big, a big part of it was just rejecting and kind of putting up a boundary and not looking at it so often. And finding people who I felt were much more supportive have some flexibility in terms of, you know, what, what our bodies are supposed to look like, what our meals are supposed to look like, and not so restrictive. But also finding some kindness for myself and love for myself and respect for myself, I think that those were the really big pieces for me that I really had to, to work on. So for me, I think that's what it still looks like is just kind of remembering to kind of reject any negative shaming guilty thoughts that I have about food or myself?
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Yeah, yeah, that's so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. I feel like you know, we talked about the slide here at ch but you know, how the root cause of wellness in a way is kind of realizing the connection between all things all beings and how really, it's about, it's about love in all its manifestations, one of those aspects of love is food, right? We know that, you know, food is very imbued with the spirit of you know, the Earth is kind of giving us this abundance. This, you know, I think I heard the other day, like, what's it up, punch them online, right or something and sort of like this idea of this earth is very bountiful, and giving us through creation, like all this abundance, and we're taking that in as nourishment. And then we have kind of the science side, which can be very helpful in certain areas. But then sometimes it we can overanalyze things and we can become, you know, in a situation where there's paralysis by analysis by over analysis of that. Exactly. Yeah. And I think even as practitioners we're trained to over analyze sometimes things, you know,
Holly Zink:
yeah, yeah. So when you're doing I think, over analyzing or analyzing and when it's a little mean, you're helping Somebody else with it, it's very different than when you're trying to do it for yourself. Because you can kind of separate a little bit from the emotions, and be a little more objective when you're, you're helping someone else. But when you're trying to do it yourself, and you're teasing out emotions, plus that objective data, it's really hard to see. So I think even in that like finding somebody who can guide you as a practitioner, even though you know what you need to do, sometimes you need someone to tell you how to do it, it can be really helpful to get the help as a practitioner from someone else.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
I definitely need help with that. Yes. I know. I'm very grateful for our team here, helping help them out for nutrition or intuitive eating in general. I guess we should talk about some of the some of the concluding things like what kind of resources can you recommend for for people learn more about intuitive eating, especially if they're facing challenges, which you know, are going to inevitably come up, there's going to be some roadblocks or challenges as people try to intuitively eat? What kind of resources would you recommend people to learn more and to kind of stay on this path of that?
Holly Zink:
Yeah, well, so the, the, the RDS who created intuitive eating the whole framework and kind of put it out there, they wrote a book called intuitive eating. So you can, you can get that it has a lot of great information. And their most recent version actually has some some summaries of studies that have been done using intuitive eating and how successful it can be and helping helping people reach their goals. So that's when you know, that's kind of the starting point, I think. They've also created some workbooks. So they have a workbook for adults, and they have a workbook for teenagers. And so they've walked through each of the different principles with different exercises that you can do. So just kind of at the starting point, those would be what I'd recommend. And there's also they on their website, they have a support group, it's free to join. But it's just kind of if you feel stuck, it's getting, you know, you can you can get in with the community there. And just really talk about what your successes are, what your struggles are, and really have that kind of feeling of support that you're not alone as you're working through it. And I think those are some good places to start. They're kind of go into the source of knowledge there. So this would be ideally, I think, where you can start. Yeah,
Dr. Andrew Wong:
great. I love how simple the title is, and how intuitive that title is intuitive. Yeah, of course, that would make sense as their book title. Great. Thank you so much, Holly, and we have a closing question for you. Before we get into kind of how to get in contact with you. Thank you so much for being on today for brown to have podcast episode. This has been so amazing, talking about intuitive eating, and I know that I definitely will be looking at food differently after today, in a good way, especially since the holidays are coming up. What is one thing under $20 though, that you feel has transformed your health to something that is very affordable for people that's accessible that's practical, that you've kind of felt has made an outsize, you know, Game Changing effect on your personal health?
Holly Zink:
Yeah, well, for for me, I had a couple of things come to mind with with this, with this question like this, the very initial reason that I got into nutrition and really kind of started changing how I thought about health and wellness, was Michael Pollan's book in defense of food, where he kind of sets out these relatively simple rules, but it's a lot more complex than it sounds like where I think he said, the food, mostly plants, not too much. And that kind of opening just kind of drew me in. And it really changed how I looked at food and how I was treating my body. And whether it was stress or health food, connected us to people connected us to the earth and how this, our choices could affect the earth and society in general. So that was a big starting point for me. And the other one is, it might it might sound kind of silly, but magnesium. Magnesium has been incredible for me. It's helped me get better arrest, which I is huge. It's so foundational to help, but I tend to be more anxious person. So it's really helped me to tame that. And I think because it's, you know, it's kind of tricky to get it from food because of farming practices. I think I really need that as a support for me. So it really has changed how I'm able to show up in my life, which is huge for me.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Great. So Michael Pollan In Defense of Food and magnesium supplementation, which you can also get from Epsom salt baths to that's another way, but they can't have magnesium. Thank you, Holly. And Holly, thank you so much for coming on again today. how can listeners learn more about you and work with you here at MCI? Ah,
Holly Zink:
yeah. Well, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation. You can find my bio on the Capitol Integrative Health website at ci health.org. And you can use the phone number there if you'd like to work with me to call and make an appointment.
Dr. Andrew Wong:
Great. Thank you, Holly. I hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday season or intuitive eating meal depending on when you're listening to this and hope everyone out there is enjoying their food and really deeply connecting. Thank you so much again, Holly. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to leave us a review. It helps our podcasts to reach more listeners. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our next episodes and conversations. And thank you so much again for being with us.