Episode 18: Dani Williamson, FNP on Healing Trauma and 6 Practical Tips for Wellness

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SPEAKERS: Dr. Andrew Wong, Dani Williamson, FNP

Welcome to the Capital Integrative Health podcast, a podcast dedicated to transforming the consciousness around what it means to be healthy and understanding the root causes of both disease and wellness. I am Dr. Andrew Wong, co-founder of Capital Integrative Health, an integrative practice committed to expanding access to holistic root cause medicine to the global community.

We are excited today to have a special guest, Dani Williamson. Dani owns Integrative Family Medicine in Franklin, Tennessee and focuses on gut and hormone health with her patients. Her approach embodies a physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual process to healing and her first book which is called ‘Wild and Well: Dani’s Six Common Sense Steps to Radical Healing’ is now available and I can tell you it’s a great read. Join us for a conversation today with Dani about how our childhood experiences, lifestyle, nutrition, and much more affect our health and what you can do to heal your body, mind, and spirit from the inside out.

Dr. Wong:

Well, welcome Dani to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Dani:

Thank you so much for inviting me. This will be fun.

Dr. Wong:

Yes, it will. Have a lot of fun today and just before we got on, we just met your standard poodle who’s really beautiful.

Dani:

Thank you. Yeah, he’s a handful.

Dr. Wong:

Yes.

Dani:

He’s a handful.

Dr. Wong:

So, let’s talk about some background first so what kind of made you first interested in Integrative health and how did you know that you wanted to become a nurse practitioner?

Dani:

Oh, gosh. That’s a loaded question. So, I actually spent the first 22 years of my career, I have a master’s degree in Fashion Design and I was a fit model in New York City, I owned a maternity and children’s store in Paducah, Kentucky, and taught childbirth classes. I was the first doula in Western Kentucky and I thought I was going to do that for the rest of my life and then in my late 30s, I got divorced and thought uh-oh, I’ve got to do something more than sell breast pumps and nipple cream the rest of my life to support these children. So, I already was in women’s health. I applied to the nurse midwifery program and the family nurse practitioner program at Vanderbilt, got accepted at 40. I was the oldest person in my class, graduated school, got a job in a Functional Medicine clinic, I had a traditional allopathic degree. I had personally spent 24 years seeing doctors, chronic irritable bowel syndrome, four colonoscopies, lupus, depression, chronic itching, 10 doctors, 24 years. My second job really out of nurse practitioner school, a doctor looked at me and said, “Dani, what are you eating? Don’t you know your diet controls your disease? Do you take digestive enzymes and probiotics and do you know your food sensitivities?”. it turned my entire world around 11 years ago. That was my job at Cool Springs Family Medicine. It was a Functional Medicine clinic. It changed the entire trajectory of my life, my patients lives, I hope my children’s lives, my grandchildren’s lives and that’s how I got started in it and I was hired right out of nursing school, knew nothing about Functional Medicine. I was still on food stamps. I had gone through nurse practitioner school, lost everything, was on food stamps and medical card and was sick and I knew nothing. I had no idea that what’s at the end of your fork would heal you or kill you. Nobody. Four colonoscopies, four gastroenterologists. No one had ever said that to me. So, that started my journey.

Dr. Wong:

Right. It’s incredible how nutrition is considered even now in 2021. Sometimes, certain you

know groups in society as more of like alternative or you know this is- it really should be the first line medicine.

Dani:

The first line and I tell patients this every day. I mean if you believe in the Bible, Daniel, I’m not recreating the will over here, Daniel said 2,000 years ago, “We’re not eating that. Feed me and my warriors. We’re not eating the food from the king’s palace.” He was the original one. Dani Williamson is just I mean and probably Hippocrates before, right? All disease begins in the gut. We know that. And so, I wasn’t taught this in school and I’m so grateful now that I get to help men and women reverse the decades of chronic lifestyle disease that they’re living with just like I had, diseases you weren’t born with.

Dr. Wong:

Yes. Ancient civilizations you know, wise healers like you mentioned and so you know, a lot of Integrative Medicine is about kind of returning to our roots, you know?

Dani:

You bet.

Dr. Wong:

That’s awesome.

Dani:

You bet. Yes.

Dr. Wong:

And what do you enjoy most about as an integrative functional practitioner now you know, what do you enjoy most about what you do?

Dani:

Well, I’ll tell you what, the success stories. I love what I do but yesterday was a good day so I can say this you know, smiling, was a great day. The last two patients yesterday walked in, one was a young man in his 30s, the other one was a woman probably in her 60s. Both of them are completely different people than they were four months ago and they both started crying, they both got very emotional over it and the fact that you get to see people turn around decades of chronic dysfunction, decades of chronic inflammation by helping them control their diet. And I mean to me, I mean that’s where I find joy, that’s the most fulfilling thing that I do in that office and I tell people every day, I’m only as good as what you do when you leave here. If you don’t follow anything I ask you to do then you know, this doesn’t work.

Dr. Wong:

We often say in our clinic too, the patient is the CEO of their own health and you know, taking that responsibility is really something that transforms a relationship from a dictatorship which is a traditional model to more of a partnership.

Dani:

You bet and we are a partnership in there. We walk them through it. You know, most people have no idea just like your clinic, we get the sickest of the sickest oftentimes and they have never been told you know or never been asked what are you eating. We walk them through it. I mean they have no idea. They think they’re eating clean but you know and I tell them if you have boxes, bags, cans, tubes, rolls you know, products in your kitchen that’ll still be there in two months, three months then that’s not food, that’s Frankenfood and they think because they’re eating gluten-free or maybe that they’re eating clean, they don’t realize really how poor they are eating and so it’s education and when you don’t know, you don’t know but once you know and you start feeling better, what I see is people will never go back. They don’t go back. They may backslide but they never go back to where they were.

Dr. Wong:

So, I think what you’re saying to interpret that is that Kraft mac and cheese is not real food, correct?

Dani:

No, that’s correct. That’s Frankenfood, right? And that’s what I grew up on, that’s what I grew up on. Kraft mac and cheese, frozen probably 75 cent Totino’s pizzas and chicken pot pies. My mom was a single mom. A lot of it, me growing up, chicken pot pies for probably were a quarter, I don’t know, but then I’m 55. I mean that is Frankenfood, that’s not real food.

Dr. Wong:

It’s kind of like the short-term benefit of oh you’re going to save money, go to the market, get some for 75 cents versus these long-term effects on both you know, our physical health but also the health of the planet or communities or planet as a whole. That’s what Dr. Hyman says in that book ‘Food Fix’ that he published.

Dani:

You bet. Yes, I love him. I listen to his podcast also and yours and that’s exactly correct but again, people don’t know. They only know what they know and baby steps, turning these things around because it’s overwhelming. You and I have done this for years but I remember the day that I got my first food sensitivity test back for me. 29 foods were on it. 29 foods, eggs, dairy gluten. I mean all kinds of things, all the things I ate and you know, and I just said what in the world am I going to eat but people don’t realize, we have hundreds of foods to eat and we only eat about 12 or 13 or 15 foods so it’s a learning process and your body’s designed to heal itself and once that ship starts to right ship, man there’s no going back.

Dr. Wong:

Totally agree and I think this is a little bit of a tangent but I almost think we could reconceptualize the elimination diet as like a whole food side or something like that so it’s more positive people can understand what they can eat versus what they can’t eat.

Dani:

Oh, I love that. I’m getting ready to redo our elimination diet and stuff and I love that. It’s really not about what you’re cutting out. Now, I talk about this when we get food sensitivity back and people freak out because there’s a list you know, 20 foods long and I say look at the green list, look at the list of all the things you can eat but if you don’t call it an elimination, if you thought that’s good, that’s good wording right there.

Dr. Wong:

And yeah, sometimes also you know, getting CSAs and things and just kind of I remember when getting a CSA and it’s like I had a rhubarb which I actually hadn’t been really eating or you know didn’t know how to cook it so it’s like oh how do we eat rhubarb or you know what I do with kohlrabi or whatnot so it’s kind of neat to like look at you know. There’s a lot of different foods that people can try you know, new things that are well, they’re not new but they might be new to us because we haven’t tried them.

Dani:

That’s exactly right. I say that all the time. How often when you go the grocery do you buy turnip or do you buy mustard greens or do you go buy an artichoke which by the way I’ve cooked an artichoke once in my life. I have zero desire to ever do it again. I will pay the money to let somebody cook that one at a restaurant. That’s ridiculous but they don’t. We go get the same food week after week after week. I’m a huge proponent of the farmers market. I actually lead tours here at our local farmers market in Franklin during the year and just so people can meet their farmer and know their farmer and when you eat in season, man you feel so much better and you get to try new things, right? This is the season that we’re supposed to be eating more root vegetables and heartier foods and you know, thicker stews and soups and slowing down. We don’t eat in season, we don’t move in season, we don’t do anything in season. We go 90 to nothing 12 months a year and eat the same food.

Dr. Wong:

It’s a novel concept of staying connected to the earth and eating seasonally and locally and all these things but I do think we should have, Dani and I, we should have a public service announcement here at public service requests because I also find artichoke very hard to cook so if any listeners out there have a good recipe for artichoke, please put that in the comments.

Dani:

Please, please send it to me because yeah that was the most time consuming ordeal that afternoon, i’ll never forget it. I was like oh this is just dumb but okay thank you. I’m glad to know I’m not the only one.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. I cooked it and at the end of the day, there wasn’t that much artichoke to eat. It was

like too much.

Dani:

Oh no.

Dr. Wong:

Too much stalk for me.

Dani:

It’s a lot of work for me. Yes, and not much, yes.

Dr. Wong:

Well, let’s go on to your amazing new book, best-selling book out available on different sites like amazon etc., called ‘Wild & Well’. I am in the middle of that book, I finished the the food part with the you know, one of the most important chapters kind of skimming through the rest right now but what was the inspiration for your new book “Wild & Well’? Let’s start with that.

Dani:

Well, the inspiration was I knew when we started getting a waiting list to move to to see me, I’m a solo practitioner and I was told by a friend of mine, you need to write a book Dani. The only way you’re going to be able to help more people is to write a book and you can only help people one-on-one so I knew that if I wanted to get this message out, that healing is not rocket science, that I grew up in complete chaos and had a lot of childhood trauma and a lot of chronic diseases piling up on me, that I needed to write a book and I needed to break it down into common sense medicine, six steps that people could actually do whether they were from Gilbertsville, Kentucky like me living on food stamps you know, whether they had an eighth grade education or Harvard graduate school education that it was common sense, anyone can heal themselves so that was my inspiration. Was I needed to get the word out and I wanted to help millions of people and I think it’s a fantastic book. I really am proud of it, took two years to get the thing written but it was 55 years in the making.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. I really love your book and I’m not even done reading it yeah but I think it’s already one of my favorite books because it’s both practical and personal.

Dani:

Thank you.

Dr. Wong:

You know, it’s practical to the point where you can actually have the best laid treatment plans, the best functional treatment plans, the best natural medicine treatment plans, integrative treatment plans but if that’s not practical for the person, doesn’t take into account all the challenges and obstacles that might happen their lives, the mindset, all this thing, then it’s not really gonna be actually executed you know so I think it’s really important for things to be practical and then I think the personal aspect in your book

you talk about the 24 years you spent struggling with chronic lifestyle diseases and now you’re helping your patients reverse their decades of chronic illness, what was the turning point for you to heal your body from the inside out? I think you did talk about that a little bit with the doctor talking about food but kind of that that moment, if we could just take a deep dive into that, what was that turning point like for you?

Dani:

The turning point..

Dr. Wong:

For your body inside out and then I think you know, as things started to unfold and you start to heal your body, how long did that take you I guess would be one question?

Dani:

Well, it took a long time so let me tell you something you actually touched on briefly. I was feeling much better pretty quickly into this, right? When I started eliminating foods and things but I did not turn the corner 100% and really start reversing everything that was going on with me until I dealt with the trauma and that the childhood trauma for me and

so that was the turning point and when I went into deep hardcore therapy, EMDR, lots and lots of therapy for me to deal with the childhood trauma that happened in my life, that’s when my body started letting go and healing because you know this, the body keeps score?

Dr. Wong:

Yeah.

Dani:

And that’s when I first learned about adverse childhood experiences. I wasn’t taught that in school. Not one class that I have talked about you know, your patient may have you know this this and this going on due to what happened to them before the age of 18 and when I learned about adverse childhood experiences and started incorporating that into my office, I knew that I had to get the word out that again, that’s the reason the first part of the book is on trauma and addressing that.

Dr. Wong:

I love that you put that in the beginning of the book before the six steps to healing that you talk about but like you said it does begin with healing the trauma and looking at how that affects the hormone system, the immune system, the GI system you know, all these things are affected by trauma. And you know, like you said, you had some trauma as a child falling on hard times putting yourself through in peace school while raising your kids, the single mother, how do you do it all and still take time to kind of come up with those six steps which we’ll talk about in a minute?

Dani:

I don’t know, I just do it. I was on a podcast here so she said what in the world, how did you arise from those ashes of the trauma and then the events of my divorce and I said you know, I think people just there’s two types probably. You can lay down and die or you can get up and say you know what, I’m going to do better, I’m going to be better, I’m going to be better than you know, where I came from and that was how- it’s innate. I think it’s innate in many people and it was me and you just keep going. But, for many years, for decades, I did not take time. I now build my life around self-care. I’ve built a life that includes self-care. I do not have to take time for self-care because I have learned to automate, eliminate, and delegate everything I can in my life and it’s in that de-stress well chapter.

Dr. Wong:

AED. Yeah, yeah.

Dani:

AED. Right. Get it on life support and I now, I don’t do anything. If I didn’t want to be on this podcast, I would have said I can’t do that, it’s not good for me and nothing gets on your schedule, does it Dr. Wong? Unless you agree to it.

Dr. Wong:

Correct. That’s so true.

Dani:

Right. So, yes and so I really for many years, I destroyed my adrenals. Thank goodness, my thyroid work, great. I do not have a thyroid issue but my cortisol levels were through the roof. I never had adrenal fatigue but I was on fire 100% of the time and I never knew that you were allowed to build self-care into your life, you were allowed to set boundaries. I have a very stressful mother. We never got along, ever got along, ever in the history of my life and since the day I was born.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah.

Dani:

Honestly, six weeks into my life, she had postpartum psychosis and was institutionalized and then tried to die by suicide just like her father did so I grew up in real chaos there and I learned that I could set boundaries with my mom.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. That’s huge, being able to set boundaries is huge.

Dani:

Right and now that she has Alzheimer’s disease and I am an only child and my mom is an only child, guess who her caregiver is. Me.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah.

Dani:

I’m the only one. Two and a half hours away, heading there the second we finish this. I’m heading there.

Dr. Wong:

Wow.

Dani:

But I have still learned to set my boundaries. I can’t change it. I can’t reverse her. So, that’s how I think I you know, I think I’m a survivor by heart. I am a survivor and some of us, all of us are. Now, not everyone unleashes that warrior spirit in them but we all are survivors or we wouldn’t be here out of how many million or billion sperm, I mean, right?

Dr. Wong:

Right.

Dani:

And one egg I mean we are the winners. We won.

Dr. Wong:

We are by default. The survivors, right?

Dani:

I bet we are.

Dr. Wong:

And I think we can talk about that now since we’re getting into aces. You talk about this, you talk about adverse childhood experiences. If you could just give us some examples of what our aces and how do they impact our long-term health? Because I think it’s important for the listeners to know how significant this really is.

Dani:

Well, adverse childhood experiences actually came about in the late 90s with Dr. Felletti who had a weight loss clinic in San Diego, California and in the history on that, you can read online. There’s a long history on it. To make it very short, he asked a patient one day who had dropped out of the program. He misspoke and he said, “How much did you weigh when you first had sex?”, and she said 40 pounds and he said I’m sorry I meant, I’m sorry, what? And she said 40 pounds and he said no I meant to say how old were you when you first had sex and she said four years old, it was my father. That was the first aha moment for him because these women and men were losing hundreds of pounds and dropping out of the program. They ended up calling in something like 268 people that had dropped out of the program, come to find out about 80 percent of those dropouts of the program had childhood trauma. Well, we didn’t have an adverse questionnaire at that point. They couldn’t believe it. They could not believe that they had this much trauma. These people did and this was a white upper middle class to upper class populatio. This was not a black or a brown or lower class I mean this was and these were college educated people. So, fast forward, he and the CDC as many people know maybe listening to this, they ended up with this questionnaire, the adverse childhood experience questionnaire, which are 10 questions, emotional, physical abuse you know, ten questions. What happened to you before the age of eighteen? Did a parent go to prison? Were you sexually assaulted or raped? Were your parents divorced? Was anybody an alcoholic? Was anybody mentally ill? Did you feel uncared for? Were you physically hurt? And out of 17,000 people that ended up being interviewed and surveyed for this you know, 60 to 75 percent of the population have at least one adverse childhood experience.

Dr. Wong:

That’s huge.

Dani:

And if you have one, you have about a 70% chance I think it is rate to have a second one. The higher the score, the shorter your life span. I have an adverse childhood experience score of six.

Dr. Wong:

So, there’s ACEs right? There’s ACEs and thank you for sharing all that. I think there’s ACEs, there’s also trauma as adults, there’s medical trauma, there’s trauma from chronic illnesses, and things like that.

Dani:

You bet, you bet, you bet. So, we have to address all of that and ACEs just hit 18 you know, 18 and below which the American Pediatric Association says, this is the number one greatest public health crisis we have out there is missing this. I wasn’t taught about ACES.

Dr. Wong:

A lot of people you know, that are listening to this that are above the age of 18, let’s say they may not all be aware of how great an impact ACEs have on our health chronically so..

Dani:

Exactly. You’re right. Because again, the body keeps score.

Dr. Wong:

The body keeps the score, exactly. Thank you so much for sharing that. So, ACEs are one thing and dealing with trauma overall is one pillar and then of course the other pillar is really the self-care that you talked about so brilliantly in your book and I think the big thing that kind of I’ve gotten from that and also from this interview so far too is that you know, it’s really about like you said automating that, kind of making the self-care your default mode as opposed to something that’s going to be number five or number six on your list after you’ve taken care of all these other things.

Dani:

That’s right. Create a life that you do not have to escape from.

Dr. Wong:

‘Create a life that you do not have to escape them’. Love that.

Peaks and valleys, right? We do sure, I mean sometimes we have seasons in our life that, I mean you can’t create a life you can’t escape from like all hecks breaking loose in your life but overall, create a life you do not need to escape from and that means if you need to change your job, right? If you need to change your partner or get out of an abusive relationship or cut the soul suckers out of your life. Nobody says you have to keep those people in your life and these are not mean things. These are self-care. This is putting your oxygen mask on first because you have the right to be a hundred and fifty percent. There’s a reason you put your oxygen mask on first if the plane’s going down. It’s not to save the you know row 18 back there, it’s because you’re worthy to be a hundred percent but the beauty of it is when Andrew Wong is a hundred and fifty percent, so is everyone else, It’s a trickle-down effect and as women for sure, we don’t put ourselves first. We don’t. And then we’re angry about it.

Dr. Wong:

And this is probably for a lot of reasons but society you know, culture, there’s messages and things, probably messages that are not even conscious I think a lot of times.

Dani:

You’re right. I believe that, yes. So, I think it’s real important and it’s the fifth step for me you know, and healing although it probably should be the first because if the stress level’s through the roof, you’re not going to eat well or sleep well or move well or poop well. I mean you know, everything falls apart when your stress level’s through the roof.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. Let’s get into the six steps of healing, the kind of the the meat of the book so to speak that you use in your practice and you’re detailing your book ‘Wild & Well’. So, you talk about six steps to healing, eat well, sleep well, move well, poop well, de-stress well, and commune well and maybe you could get a little bit of you know overview of that. We can get it go deep dive into some of those. How do you recommend that people incorporate these steps into their lives in a practical way?

Dani:

Well, most people can’t do all that all the same time but we can certainly work towards it. Eating well for me is the first step because it’s the first thing. We can go without you know doing drugs or we don’t need drugs or smoking or alcohol to survive but you have to eat to survive and what you’re eating will heal you or kill you so I start there. Your diet is key. It is key and it’s the hardest thing to change because we’re so emotionally connected to food. We eat the same foods over and over as we’ve discussed so it’s the biggest part of the chapter and it breaks down the top seven inflammatory foods, how to you know, incorporate cleaner food into your diet. The hardest part for eating well that I find with people and it was with me, if you’re not single like I’m a single mom now, my kids are grown, but if you have a spouse or children in there who are not on board, extremely difficult. If you don’t have backup or support, you see this, right? In practice?

Dr. Wong:

Absolutely.

Dani:

You can have all the nutritionists and the health coaches you want but if they get home and the entire family is screaming and yelling that you know, they want their whatever for dinner, right?

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. It’s going to be hard.

Dani:

They’re not going to be able to do it so the eat well chapter to me is the most important and it is clearly the key and if you can’t do it all at one start with eating well and if you can’t cut out gluten, dairy, sugar, then cut one of those out. Just start. Sleep well, your body heals when you sleep. If you can’t sleep, you will never eat well and you’re not going to exercise and you’re not going to poop and your body heals when you sleep and the entire sleep well chapter talks about making your bedroom a sanctuary like I can’t get away from these lights, you can’t get away from the lights, the computer, all the electromagnetic fields, and all that. If your bedroom is loaded with computers and TVs and routers and phones, junk cluttered up, I mean your bedroom needs to be a sanctuary and the bed is for sleep and sex only, Andrew Wong and if you’re not doing one or the other in it, get out of it. it’s as simple as that.

Dr. Wong:

And do you ever use those earthing mats to ground yourself at night like in the bed and all that?

Dani:

Yeah, I have a lot of patients that do that. I don’t have one but they say they work beautifully.

Dr. Wong:

I’m gonna check that out.

Dani:

Great. Praise God. That’s one of the things that- I don’t know enough about earthy mats but I do know quite a bit about electromagnetic fields and they will disrupt your circadian rhythm all night long and people sleep with their phones right under their pillow especially teenagers.

Dr. Wong:

Right.

Dani:

Or right beside their body. Distance is your friend with electromagnetic fields.

Dr. Wong:

Right. Turn it on airplane mode. I think at least three feet away is good but ideally get it out of the room.

Dani:

My friend is an electrical engineer and she only deals with EMF. She says six feet.

Dr. Wong:

Six feet, okay.

Dani:

Six feet away.

Dr. Wong:

That makes sense.

Dani:

And you know, that’s interesting because people with CPAPs, think about that. They’ve got that charging all night long. Now, they’re breathing and it’s saving their life.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah.

Dani:

But they’ve also- so she recommends an extension cord out and all of that and electric beds. Think about sleeping on top of a minefield.

Dr. Wong:

So, I want to touch back real quick on the nutrition and eating well. In the book, you detailed these I think it’s called sinister seven or is that right? I love that. I love that.

Dani:

Yeah.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah, grouping. But these are foods that you know, in theory can be very inflammatory for a lot of people. I think it was gluten, dairy, sugar, soy, let’s see, eggs and then there were two more.

Dani:

Corn and peanuts.

Dr. Wong:

Corn and peanuts. Oh, thank you, thank you. So, a lot of the things-

Dani:

Those are the top seven.

Dr. Wong:

That are commonly found in the standard American diet, right?

Dani:

Everything. Everything, that’s what I said. That’s the first thing my patient says, “Dani, what am I going to eat? I eat gluten, dairy, sugar every day”. Eggs, soy is in everything processed. If you don’t think it is, look at your packages. Soy of some sort is in everything and soy’s not horrible, right? If soy were horrible then the asians, the southeast asia I mean, they would all be sick or breast cancer. It’s not the soy, it’s the way the soy is processed.

Dr. Wong:

They’re eating whole foods.

Dani:

That’s exactly correct.

Dr. Wong:

What are the major nutrition wrecks that you’re giving to people in terms of besides eliminating those sinister seven which are your top foods and it might be different for different people but what kind of recommendations do you typically give to people to help for healing?

Dani:

Well, I’m a fan of a whole food one ingredient diet. Whatever that is you’re eating, a Mediterranean lifestyle. I’m a fan of a Mediterranean lifestyle. I know that that’s the lifestyle that the bulk of the world.

Dr. Wong:

And that’s such a huge point you just made because we always talk about different diets like there’s an elimination diet or paleo diet or mediterranean diet but it really should be a lifestyle really.

Dani:

It is a lifestyle.

Dr. Wong:

Right because if someone is stressed and they haven’t dealt with the trauma and they’re eating a mediterranean diet but everything else is not mediterranean then it doesn’t really help.

Dani:

Exactly. So, fresh for more vegetables and you can shake a stick out in all the different colors, right? And in season fruit, lean fish, nuts, seeds, fruits, vegetables, pork, lamb, turkey. You could eat anything, anything. One ingredient. God made food, that’s what I tell people and they’re like what in the world but that means you have to cook. Cooking is self-care. I’m just telling you, you cannot be healthy and live a long productive life if you’re getting your food out of someone’s drive-through window.

Dr. Wong:

You know when I’m cooking, I feel that too. I feel like oh, I’m actually taking care of myself you know. I feel that internally.

Dani:

Yes, I do too and you can’t help but feel that way. There’s a reason for your drive-through food, your favorite chicken restaurant, right? Your favorite hamburger restaurant, there’s a reason it tastes the same in Bethesda, Maryland as it does in Nashville, Tennessee. It was made in a chemistry lab and you and your children are the chemistry lab rats. You are the lab rats.

Dr. Wong:

We are the experiments, yes. And what I realized after looking at some of those ingredients, I mean it is pretty scary. It’s like oh, this is frankenfood you know. It looks like food but it’s not.

Dani:

No, it’s not food at all. It’s not food. Yeah. And it would probably sit there in its wrapper for six months and still not go bad and not grow mold or anything. That’s pretty sad.

Dr. Wong:

Right. Like I think there was that, what was that movie called? Where they had the McDonald’s french fries and then it just didn’t decay for like years basically.

Dani:

That’s right. I have a friend who’s had a McDonald’s burger for 14 years. She’s a trainer in town and nutrition gal. 14 years. Her house just burned two months ago but the burger did not burn. This is the funniest thing. She just shared it on Instagram and it was her McDonald’s burger in the original wrapper 14 years ago. Nothing has decayed.

Dr. Wong:

Wow.

Dani:

14 years. I’m not ragging on McDonald’s so don’t send me nasty letters but it’s a fact. It’s a fact and you can look that up.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah.

Dani:

And so again, it’s not food. It’s not food.

Dr. Wong:

Aright. So, you’re starting with diet and feeling the gut and then what are some of your sleep tips that you would recommend for people in general besides like making the bedroom a sanctuary and avoiding EMS? Any other tips you’d recommend? Because I think sleep is such an epidemic now, insomnia I mean is such an epidemic.

Dani:

You bet. Have a nighttime routine you know. Start winding down but here’s something that I want people to know you know. Take magnesium if you need it, melatonin if you need it. There’s nothing wrong with that sleepytime tea. Take an epsom salt bath, things like that. Keep the room cold. I’m much better with a cold room and lots of covers but I learned when I was researching a sleep chapter about first and second sleep and if you haven’t read that chapter yet, you’ll see. We used to hundreds and hundreds of years ago, go to bed at dusk, wake up about five four five hours later, have sex, read the Bible, sow something, cook something, whatever, fix the fire, and then go back to sleep and sleep until daylight or when we woke up. That was called first and second sleep. Well, after the turn of the century, those references in medical literature started going away. Well, when we started with an industrial revolution and things like that, and that’s when references of insomnia in the medical literature started to pop up. I’m guilty and I apologize to all my patients in that book, of telling people they needed to sleep through the night. No, you don’t. You don’t have to sleep through the night. Give yourself some grace. If you’re one of those people who wakes up at two or three and you can’t go back to sleep, that’s okay. Now, if you have to get up at 4am and get ready for work, that’s a little bit of an issue but if you don’t, then give yourself some grace. Do something quiet, maybe some yoga, maybe you know some meditation, pray, whatever, and then go back to sleep. We put so much pressure on ourselves to sleep all night. We don’t have to. Dr. Tieraona Low Dog if you know her, she’s a medical doc.

Dr. Wong:

Yes.

Dani:

And she’s great. She’s the one who first taught me about it and then I forgot about it until I was researching this. She gets up most every night, has some tea, reads and she says it’s not how long you sleep consecutively, it’s how you feel in the morning.

Dr. Wong:

I totally agree with that and I’m glad you’re deconstructing that myth because that does seem to be a pervasive myth even among integrative practitioners I would say.

Dani:

Yes. So, that was my big ‘aha’. Writing the sleep chapter was whoa whoa, I’ve done it all wrong with people. I haven’t helped these women and men.

Dr. Wong:

Now, do you believe that – sorry, do you believe that one hour of sleep before midnight is worth two hours? Like this whole idea of early to bed, early to rise?

Dani:

I do, I do. But now, I go to bed with the chickens and I’m up at 4:30, whatever. And, I think a morning routine and an evening routine are very important, I do. And it doesn’t matter, you can do anything. There’s no right or wrong. It’s what’s worked best for you. Now say there’s no right or wrong, I think you should stay off your electronics. I think for sure and I don’t think you need to do that first thing in the morning either, be on your phone before you get out of bed. How many people do that?

Dr. Wong:

I mean man-made light, artificial light, that’s really not how we were created to. If people are up at two or three a.m after five, six hours of sleep, there might be a fire light or something. It might be moonlight but it’s not like there’s like bright light where you know, that we have.

Dani:

And do you know something I really work hard on is grounding and earthing and that’s all in the book as well. Getting your feet to the earth and your face to the sky, your face to the sun in the morning and in the evening. And I talk about forest bathing in there as well but that poodle that’s sitting right below me here, he doesn’t have anxiety. Most animals, most horses, most cows, pigs, dogs, cats do not have anxiety or depression unless they’ve got real neurotic owners and some do and they feed off of that. They don’t wear shoes. They’re out on that grass. They’ve got their feet to the earth, their face to the sun and I am telling you, the sky and the sun is set up to- a good morning set you up for a good evening and a good evening sets you up for a good morning so it’s a big piece of my daily ritual that is as often as I can, I’m out in the morning, I’m out in the evening barefoot.

Dr. Wong:

So, circadian rhythm, shed the shoes and get out on the soil, sun and sky it sounds like, yeah. That’s amazing.

Dani:

You bet. There’s a reason people live longer at the ocean, the salt, the sun, the sea, the sand, the sky, and they’re barefoot.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah.

Dani:

I mean, yes.

Dr. Wong:

It makes a lot of sense and you know, these are things that are cheap. There’s things we can all do, right? We can all do..

Dani:

Common sense, Practical Medicine.

Dr. Wong:

Yes. Practical common sense medicine, love it. Let’s go on to moving well, what do you what do you mean by moving well and I love movement you know, versus exercise?

Dani:

Yeah.

Dr. Wong:

What is moving well?

Dani:

I think people’s cortisol levels go up when you say, “what are you doing for exercise?”. So, I try to reword it and say “what are you doing to move your body?”. I don’t care what you do. Your body is designed to move. I don’t care if your favorite thing is hula hooping, I’ve got a hula hoop sitting right in there, hanging on the door. I love to hula hoop. Great exercise.

Dr. Wong:

It’s a great idea.

Dani:

Rollerblading, it may be skating.I don’t care. Just move your body. Move your body. Can’t afford a gym, that’s no big deal you know. Jacqueline Lane and I have a whole section on him in the movement chapter. He did not like to move. He did not but he made his whole career off of movement, right? Basic stuff. Jumping jacks, sit-ups and push-ups, Ithink. And he said he always exercised before breakfast because that was his rule. He could not eat until he moved his body. I think that’s pretty cool but our bodies are designed to move.

Dr. Wong:

And I think this whole idea of you know sitting is the new smoking so now everyone’s standing and doing standing desks but people are still not moving if they’re standing you know, in a stationary way.

Dani:

That’s exactly right. A good friend of mine is a brilliant chiropractor and he says when you stop moving, you stop moving. I mean it’s as simple as that, you know? You don’t poop if you don’t move. Either you just stop moving, period. And again, we are not designed to get creaky and cracky and joint pain and all that as we get older. Your body’s designed to move. Move it. I mean it’s as simple and as complicated as that and when I’m in Costco shopping or wherever and I pick up those big old things, a laundry detergent, I mean I’m sure people think I’ve lost my mind. And if I’m not carrying my groceries, I’m doing arm lifts you know, out to the car. Every chance you get, move your body.

Dr. Wong:

I’ve noticed a big difference between shopping at the grocery store and not having a cart and just like carrying the bags around, it’s weightless you know, when you do that.

Dani:

That it is, yes. If you’ll carry your own bag in there and it used to embarrass my kids. I would be you know, I’d be lifting everything and doing. Yeah. So, you just need to move your body. Our bodies are designed to move and the morning-

Dr. Wong:

And I think a lot of people may be making the, what is the the phrase, you know, we don’t want to let perfect be the enemy of the good so this idea of like we have to move you know, exercise quote-unquote you know 30 to 60 minutes a day, five days a week and dress up in these fancy gym clothes and stuff, right? It’s really about movement and that may be dependent on people’s you know, health conditions like arthritis or their conditioning level and things like that. Kind of start small would you say would be helpful?

Dani:

It’s exactly right. Start small, do what you can. Do a little bit more today or tomorrow.

Dr. Wong:

Or maybe get a poodle. Maybe getting a poodle is a good to start moving.

Dani:

Gosh, yes. And I’m pretty active but boy, I’m more active now because that dog will go. I had an English bulldog before the poodle. Not recommended if you want to move your body because English bulldogs do not move.

Dr. Wong:

Interesting.

Dani:

So, it’s 12 years he just would not move.

Dr. Wong:

I’ve never met a dog that didn’t like to move but I guess English bulldogs are the ones.

Dani:

No. Bulldogs, don’t look at them. They do two things, snort and fart, snort and fart. That’s all they do. But moving, what I was going to say about moving, if you feel worse after your exercise class, if you feel worse, if you may feel better, endorphins may be going but you have to go home and lay down on the couch or get in the bed, then you’ve got the wrong exercise. I mean if any and you’d say that to a crossfitter, they get so mad, they get fighting mad like I mean they are like- and there’s nothing wrong with crossfit but it may be too much exercise for you right now. Your adrenals may not be you know, ready for that because you’ve had all this stress so you know, you need something gentler or maybe if you don’t feel anything then maybe you need to kick it up a little bit. Maybe you’re not doing enough.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. So, don’t go from couch to crossfit but also don’t compete with other people either. It’s really your own self-care we’re talking about. Right, right.

Dani:

That’s exactly right. This is about you. You’ll sleep better when you move better and people who are more active and people who move their body also eat better. They eat better, they’re less stressed, they’re happier, they live longer. There’s so many reasons. It’s all connected. And then they poop better.

Dr. Wong:

That’s the perfect segway into one of our favorite topics which is pooping so..

Dani:

Yes.

Dr. Wong:

What are your secrets that you want to kind of just preview for people? I think I really recommend people to get your book ‘Wild & Well’. What’s your kind of go-to’s for pooping well overall that you would just kind of outline here?

Dani:

Well, all the things that we just talked about but also drinking enough water. I think most people have no idea how chronically dehydrated they are. People say “oh yeah I drink a lot of water, I drink about four of those bottles of water a day”. Oh, really? Well, measure it. Get a glass jug. I’m 130 pounds so I have a 64 ounce glass jug but I have to have more because I like coffee and I also get in my sauna so I sweat. Half your body weight in ounces. I think that’s a big one, a cheap one that you can really improve on. And when you are truly hydrated, most likely you’re going to poop better. Now, not always. And I think a good probiotic helps beautifully and you can’t just go buy any old probiotic. You need to know what you’re looking for, what you’re getting and we talk about that in there.

Dr. Wong:

Got it.

Dani:

And then, also decreasing stress. Stress does one of two things to people. It clamps them down and they don’t poop or like me, you could just poop like a goose. I mean I’m the total opposite so I get just chronic diarrhea if I’m under too much stress.

Dr. Wong:

That “irritable bowel” picture when people are stressed.

Dani:

Oh, absolutely. But, a lot of people don’t so movement, enough water, maybe some magnesium. The majority of us need a good magnesium in this in this world and I’m not a big fan of oxide.

Dr. Wong:

Even people that are vegetarian and eating a lot of vegetables, green vegetables. The idea is that the soil is depleted of magnesium from industrial farming, correct?

Dani:

You bet. Yes, it is. That’s the premise behind that so I think a little bit of magnesium also a squatty potty.

Dr. Wong:

Squatty potty, yes.

Dani:

I’m a fan of a squatty potty and you don’t have to have a squatty potty if you don’t have thirty dollars or whatever they cost, I don’t know. Put your feet on the trash can, put your feet on your poodle over there if they’d be still long enough, whatever. Get your feet up. It makes the big difference. It’s huge.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. I think having a bowel movement every day ideally is really one of the best predictors of health, I would say, because you’re actually detoxing. You’re moving your gut detoxing so that you can take in more food later but you’re also kind of eliminating all those toxins that your body’s worked really hard to get down to the colon.

Dani:

That’s exactly right. It’s one big tube from the mouth to the anus. It’s fascinating to me how it goes from that banana in there to actually pooping out poop you know, preferably that by sure the next day I think what you eat today should be gone tomorrow and if your doctor tells you it’s fun to only poop twice a week or three times a week, they are wrong. They are wrong. You are chronically constipated and think of all the toxins you’re reabsorbing in your body.But again, hydrate your body, move your body. Yoga twists will help you eliminate when you twist during yoga. You can google yoga.

Dr. Wong:

Spine.

Dani:

Yoga for constipation works beautifully.

Dr. Wong:

Nice and let’s talk about stress since that does affect pooping of course and many other things. What do you mean by de-stress well?

Dani:

I mean turn the phone off, set your boundaries, the things we talked about briefly, right? Don’t take your work home if possible.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah.

Dani:

Meal prep. All the things that create stress in your life and that’s different for everyone. Everyone’s got different stressors. Start taking inventory of that and start checking those off, figuring out what is it you can do, what can you automate, eliminate, and delegate out of your life. Automate everything you can ,your bills, your groceries. Now, for me, I love going to the grocery. It’s not a stressor for me but if I had four little children and my husband worked all the time and I had to take those kids to the grocery, no way in heck would that be a de-stressing environment for me, right? Sp, automate that. I personally don’t want somebody picking out my tomatoes but again, it may be worth it to you so automate everything you can. Your bill, everything. Eliminate everything else in your life, right? That’s not necessary. You don’t have to be the room mom. Who cares, you know? Ella’s gonna go to fourth grade whether you are the room mom or not, stressing yourself out. Set your boundaries on that. Eliminate everything you can and delegate everything else you may not be good at. Some things that you really enjoy doing. Even if you enjoy doing it, you may be wasting your time and you’re not good at it. Let somebody else do that. If you’ve got the money, let somebody clean your house, right? Or do your mow, your yard. Whatever it is you can cut out to give yourself some more margin, we have no margin in our lives and therefore you can’t heal your body if you have no margin. There’s no room for error, right? If one little thing goes sideways, all heck breaks loose. We need margin. I’ve built margin in my life but it took me 50 plus years to figure that out.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. So again, thank you Dani for those words of wisdom. AED so automate, delegate, eliminate and I think this is a bit of a loaded follow-up question but how much time do you recommend in general for people and there could be some variation of this based on the amount of time they may have but again it’s about prioritizing. How much time per day would you recommend to people in general to spend on self-care?

Dani:

Well, again, I think it’s different. I think that is a loaded question but you know from- I don’t know a specific number because again some people, their exercise is their self-care and maybe that’s 30 minutes, maybe it’s an hour, I don’t know. Maybe it’s that 20-minute epsom salt bath that they take and they don’t even look at it as self-care. I think that’s different and I don’t know that exact answer. I think it’s whatever works for you and I also think it changes with your season that you’re in. For me, heck I can have a lot more self-care because I mean my kids are grown. I don’t have little children around there so I think that’s different and I think each person has to figure out how they can build that in. that self-care and if they’re married, having a real hard conversation with your spouse about this I think is really important. Really important.

Dr. Wong:

Thank you so much and then the sixth step or the number six step which I think is often you know we can consider that even one of the most important for sure is commune well. What do you mean by commune well and how does that affect healing?

Dani:

Oh my goodness. Community is where it’s at, right? You have a great community on your facebook group, a great community with your podcast. People thrive in community. You heal in community. When you laugh with your friends, eyeball to eyeball your, cortisol levels go down, your immune system goes up. We are not meant to live in isolation. Social isolation, horrible idea. I mean again protective for what we’ve been through so I understand but we now have a mental health pandemic on our hands that is worldwide from being isolated. We were not designed to be in isolation so people heal when they have community and it may mean you being the one who cultivates your community. For me, it’s me. I am the one out of all my people, my family, my friends, I’m the cultivator. I’m the one who started the neighborhood cookout during the pandemic and we all started way far apart like I’m so loud you could hear me without you know, a microphone anywhere but we all started way far apart and then our circle got tighter and tighter and tighter through last summer, through the end where we finally were all in a big circle and all but it’s me and when I don’t do that, guess what it doesn’t happen but it’s worth it. It’s worth it to be the one because how you feel when you come away from being with your family, your friends, your tribe, nothing can replace that. You will eat better, you will sleep better, you will move better, you will de-stress better and poop better when you’ve got your community. I’m a believer and so I do believe that Jesus believed in community. Well, I know he did and he had a community around him man. He had those 12 people that were just like us and then he had an inner circle inside of that one that even lifted him up more so again, I think people heal when they have community. It is my sixth step but it doesn’t mean it’s the last step, right? It may be the first step. If you have a good community, they may be people who like to eat well and they’re going to help you on your journey as well. But again, it all works together.

Dr. Wong:

Yeah. I think community can be often considered the first step. Well, thank you so much Dani for coming on today, it’s been a pleasure. It’s been so fun chatting with you and seeing your poodle of course on this podcast today. How can listeners learn more about you and work with you?

Dani:

DaniWilliamson.com, my website has everything on it and new patient paperwork. Everything’s on there but I have so much free content online, Facebook, Instagram, Youtube, all the same Dani Williamson Wellness. I put out free content every day just like you do, just lots of great information. And again, I think when you’ve been given much you have to give back much and people who do what you and I do, we love it so much we. Just want to share it with everyone. So, I have an online course on the website called ‘Inflammation is the devil’.

Dr. Wong:

Okay.

Dani:

Simple as that and it’s 29 bucks. We lowered it during this book launch. It’s just an inexpensive course now and it’s a great course so lots of different ways to connect with us. The book is available everywhere you buy books. Barnes and Noble, I would love it you buy from there because apparently that helps with trying to get it in the bookstores.

Dr. Wong:

Okay.

Dani:

But it’s a great book, it’s doing well and I just appreciate all your support and everything that you’re doing in your community.

Dr. Wong:

Thank you so much.

Dani:

It takes a village, doesn’t it?

Dr. Wong:

It definitely does. We’re on this boat together here and check out Dani Williamson’s book ‘Wild and Well’. It’s an amazing book. I think it’s going to be really life-changing for a lot of people, even people that are not in your clinic you know, Dani. People that are kind of either on your wait list or kind of wondering what practical tips can I take right now to help my health so please check that out on like you said Barnes and Noble or Amazon, etc., called ‘Wild and Well’ and thank you so much for taking the time to listen to us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to leave us a review. It helps our podcast to reach more listeners and don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss our next conversations and thank you Dani for being with us today and hope you have a nice thanksgiving.

Dani:

Thank you so much and you as well.