Episode 72: Chronic Illness & Polyvagal Theory: How Trauma Affects our Nervous System with Silvia Hazel, FNP

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Silvia Hazel:

The nervous system has to be in a state where it is dysregulated in order for chronic chronic illness to really take root. So I would say yes, that trauma is a major, if not the major root cause for trauma for chronic illness. You know, I specifically work very much in the field of, you know, chronic toxin exposure and chronic infections. And I do believe that those are triggers, but they are superimposed triggers on top of the already dysregulated nervous system. Like that’s really what setting the stage for these triggers to be able to take root and these chronic infections, you know, to be able to take hold, because as the nervous system is dysregulated, the immune system gets dysregulated. And from then, you know, we don’t necessarily have a shot right off the bat.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

I really enjoyed this conversation today with Silvia, we talked about how the nervous system is affected by trauma, and how trauma can trigger mediate and perpetuate chronic issues. Silvia Hazel: is an amazing integrative and functional nurse practitioner at ch capital, integrative health that specializes in tick borne infections, mold and heavy metal related toxicity, fertility issues, and trauma informed medicine. Sophia enjoys working with their patients to tease back in her own words, weeds and rocks to get to the soil beneath a true master gardener that is helping your patients to map out their story, find out where it began, and plan out the health and wellness journey together with her patients. Please enjoy this conversation. So as I think a lot of listeners know, Sophia, you’ve joined her practice last year in 2022. I’m so glad that you have this is actually your first visit on our podcast. So just to kind of introduce yourself to the listeners here into the community. Could you tell us a little about why you became or how you became a nurse practitioner?

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, absolutely. So I was working as a bedside nurse for several years and several hospitals in the area. And I quickly realized that I was seeing some of the same patients over and over again. And I kind of wanted to be more a part of that proactive medicine approach instead of a reactive Not that that’s not important. But I definitely felt called to do that. And in NP school, I had some of my own kind of in my personal life, things that came up that really drove me to functional medicine and integrative medicine. So very happy to be here.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

That’s so great. I think it is often about personal experiences. And how did you find out about integrative health and functional medicine when you were kind of going through

Silvia Hazel:

that? Yeah, so the story actually has to do with my daughter primarily, it’s funny how like things that have to do with ourselves are not as important. But when it happens to a loved one, it’s like way more important, you’re willing to put all your eggs in that basket. So it had to do with my daughter. And we were just like not getting the answers that we needed from conventional medicine. And actually our pediatrician who is wonderful, she recommended that we explore some other options. And so that’s how we kind of found functional and integrative medicine. I went and was like, Why is this not just how we practice every kind of medicine. And from then on, I knew I had to do that.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

It is kind of like a plumber to overturn. Right once you realize, oh, there’s something out there that is getting to the root cause Yeah,

Silvia Hazel:

this exists. So I have to be a part of it. Yeah,

Dr. Andrew Wong:

yeah. So it sounds like it was a calling that you kind of came to it with with a loved one, you know, having some health issues. Now you practicing functional medicine, looking at you know, mind body medicine. Yeah. What do you enjoy the most about what you do? As a clinician?

Silvia Hazel:

That’s a great question. I think the connection is like, probably the most important thing for me. I’m learning that my approach is constantly evolving in the sense that I’m learning constantly from my patients. And that is really fulfilling to me, but then also being able to establish these connections and this sense of trust, which is what so many people have not been able to establish with providers in the past. And really, you need to be able to establish that sense of trust to create a therapeutic relationship where the patient feels safe, and is able and willing to work through their product, their problems with you.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

One of the first things on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I believe is right, yeah. And connection is the medicine. Yeah, you know, we always talk about, oh, what kind of practitioner are you and what kind of specialty What are your degrees, but it’s really, you know, at the core of what we’re all doing in integrative health and I would even say any type of healing modality or medical care, it’s connections for that relationship.

Silvia Hazel:

Absolutely. Yeah, I know, we’ll get into this probably further in the podcast, but that idea of like CO regulation that we have to have these safe relationships that we can co regulate within and that’s why community is so important. So what we are doing here at CH is, you know, very important in that process of helping us reregulate our nervous systems.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

And I often tell people to get people to that CH is a clinic, but it’s also even more community. So even for those listening out who have never been to ch at the clinic, you’re part of that community too. Yeah, absolutely. That’s great. So today, we want to focus on polyvagal theory, trauma and chronic illness. So let’s talk about first what polyvagal theory is, how would you define that? And then we can talk about the other pieces?

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, absolutely. So polyvagal theory is a new way to kind of look at the nervous system. And it excites me, I’m smiling. And I don’t know if you can hear that right now listeners in my voice, but I’m smiling because it’s it’s a new way to kind of help us learn about the nervous system, but also to reregulate, and it gives us a different perspective on things. So typically, we’ve always thought about the nervous system as having just two branches, particularly the autonomic, which is that branch of the nervous system that we don’t have to think about that branch of the nervous system that works automatically. It’s subconscious. So typically, we’ve always thought that there’s two branches, we have that fight or flight branch, and we have that rest and digest branch. And what polyvagal theory actually is telling us is there is a more complex way of looking at this, and it might not be so simple. So a lot of times we think, okay, my heart is racing, you know, I’m anxious, I feel jittery all those things, I’m in fight or flight. And while that’s true, there’s a third kind of component that we actually have to think about there. So polyvagal theory is looking at kind of a tear of the nervous system. So we have that first here, which is more of like a social engagement, nervous system. So this is what we’re talking about with CO regulation, it’s being able to be in a group with your peers, looking at their facial expressions, being able to discern what they’re experiencing based on their facial expressions, based on the inflections in their tone of voice, you’re being able to pick up cues that are not just simply in their words. And so that that’s like, you know, the top tier for this polyvagal theory, that’s where we get fulfillment from being with people, where we create really strong connections with people where we feel heard all of those things and safe. The next step of that tier is going to be that sympathetic. So that fight or flight that we all think about, you know, when we’re anxious, or when we’re worked up when our heart is racing. So that is definitely still a part of this. And we can still kind of flow in and out of fight or flight, like we’ve always thought that we could. But there’s a third component that polyvagal theory kind of brings in which I think is really important, especially when we’re talking about chronic illness. And that’s this idea of freeze, freeze, unlike fight or flight is actually regulated by the vagus nerve. So this is the parasympathetic side of the nervous system. This is also what helps to coordinate rest and digest. But freeze is a completely different mechanism that’s happening here. And so when we freeze, what happens in is that we say to ourselves, our nervous system is saying to us, it is unsafe for us to fight, it is unsafe for us to flee, we are going to freeze. And specifically with chronic illness, a lot of people are stuck in this free state. And so that’s kind of where the work lies, as far as you know, helping to reregulate people’s nervous system.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

So if the there’s a freeze mechanism, then essentially, the vagus is somehow playing a role in in modulating that that ans and this is different than I think we are classically taught in terms of analysts, and as divisions between sympathetic fight or flight response and appear sympathetic relaxation response. Yeah, yes, absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, we think about sort of medical complexity or health complexity. polyvagal theory is very attractive to us as I think functional practitioners, integrative health practitioners, because it’s kind of like saying the symphony has more than two instruments. Yeah. Which kind of makes sense, right. I mean, it would sound good with two instruments, but sounds better with a more complete more accurate with with more than, you know, two things going on in the nervous system.

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So the whole idea here, especially in the realm of like, chronic illness, is that the mind body connection, what we’re always talking about, there is a a map for that. We know exactly how that happens. You know, it’s not just this kind of like esoteric, or like a theoretic idea of like, oh, the mind and body and crud are connected. No, there is a an actual way that that happens. And so that’s not to say that people that are experiencing chronic illness are psychosis, psychosomatic of at you know, at any in any case there. It’s more to say that our mind is so powerful that we have the ability to reregulate our nervous system and vice Versa, we have the ability to have our bodies tell our mind that we’re safe to.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

And some people call it the mind body or the body mind and even get rid of that hyphen Exactly. In a way that hyphen is, in a way also a illusion. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let’s talk about how polyvagal theory relates to trauma and chronic illness. First of all, how would you define traumas to know that’s a big part of your work?

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, great question. So I get this question all the time with patients, you know, they’ll say, Well, I haven’t had, you know, a big event in my life that I would consider to be trauma. And my biggest thing that I say to them is that it’s trauma is not the event that happens to you, it’s more related to what happens inside of you as a result of that event. And it could be one event, or it could be a series of events, you know, there’s been a lot of research to show that cumulative stress can also show itself as if it were to be trauma. And that adverse childhood events, Aces also have the ability to really, really impact, you know, nervous system health, and psychological and physiological issues showing up later in life as well. And then, to make it even a little bit more complex trauma might not even just be, you know, related to the event at all, it might just be related to whether or not you felt alone when that event took place. So there’s a lot of research out there to suggest as well that, you know, people who have experiences that could be considered traumatic, if they had a support system in place, or if they felt like they were not alone, when that event took place. They don’t have those PTSD like symptoms, you know, they don’t feel alone and processing that whole event. And so they’re able to kind of move through it. Whereas other people who might have felt alone with those experiences, they get stuck, they get stuck in that free state, they’re unable to move through the experience and move through the trauma. And that kind of gets stuck in their system. And then you know, thus we see the Free State of the nervous system. So stress

Dr. Andrew Wong:

is this construct of, you know, there’s an imbalance in the system. And it kind of overcomes the homeostatic mechanisms of an organism, which is okay, acutely, within chronically it can become, it can get stored as trauma, it sounds like physically,

Silvia Hazel:

absolutely. I mean, I like to tell my patients, and I think that this is just a really powerful image. But the Free State is equivalent to playing dead, you know, as animals, we see animals play dead, when there’s a larger predator at play ancestrally, we would do that as well. And so that’s what that’s equivalent to. The only difference is we’re also trying to live our lives while being in that free state, which is incredibly difficult. And, and it’s also hard to really find and dedicate the time to work on the nervous system to get yourself out of that, because we don’t live in a vacuum where you can eliminate all stressors and where you can just, you know, take months off at a time and be like, I’m not doing anything except for working on my nervous system.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Yeah. Although I do know some people who did do that. Yeah, it actually worked really well. I’m sure, yeah, they have the resources you the time, but But yeah, how realistic that for people, but But definitely, it sounds like trauma is a root cause if not one of the biggest root causes of chronic illness. What what is your what are your thoughts about that?

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, I would say the nervous system has to be in a state where it is dysregulated, in order for chronic chronic illness to really take root. So I would say yes, that trauma is a major, if not the major root cause for trauma for chronic illness, you know, I specifically work very much in the field of, you know, chronic toxin exposure and chronic infections. And I do believe that those are triggers, but they are superimposed triggers on top of the already dysregulated nervous system. Like, that’s really what setting the stage for these triggers to be able to take root and these chronic infections, you know, to be able to take hold, because as the nervous system is dysregulated, the immune system gets dysregulated. And from then, you know, we don’t necessarily have a shot right off the bat. So I see working on the nervous system is kind of a bottom up approach, as opposed to just addressing the trigger. That would be more of like a top down.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

And the trigger could have been like you said present before, but maybe the immune system has killed off the virus or the bacteria, or at least gotten it under control, but then the system is in the freeze mode. Yeah. So then, you know, sometimes even as practitioners or as you know, people with those health issues, they people might be kind of, you know, how clear is it? You know, what is what is causing what is it the nervous system? That’s in freeze mode? Are there still some ongoing infections? I think that’s where it’s kind of a tricky and a gray area.

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like chronic illness, also chronic pain. How would you you know, kind of describe the relationship between trauma and chronic pain as well. Yeah, I

Silvia Hazel:

would say the same thing. You know, the nervous system has to be in this dysregulated state and order for that pain to be there and consistent, you know, obviously, inflammation plays a role as well. But again, we’re talking about the immune system, which is governed by the nervous system when it comes to that, too. So chronic illness and chronic pain, I would say both of those traumas a huge trigger for and the nervous system is kind of like the switchboard that can dial up or can dial down. And it’s the governing body for all of those processes happening.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

So as a functional medicine practitioner, I’m going to throw in the question that is talking about some of the ANS procedures that we do here. I’m just kind of curious, do you find that so we do some things like quantitative EEG here, look at autonomic nervous system balance with the vital scan? Yeah, do you find that these are potentially either helpful, or at least and talking to people and informing them about, hey, there could be an issue with the nervous system or brain? Let’s let’s address this as well as the mycotoxins and the chronic Lyme and other infections?

Silvia Hazel:

Yes, absolutely. The vital scan, which is kind of looking at that balance of the autonomic nervous system, I think it is really helpful for people to see on a graph where their nervous system lies, as far as you know, is it imbalance? Is it more on the hypertonic? Side? Is it more in stress response? You know, it’s helpful for people to have a visual to be able to see that. And then, you know, they’re more likely, I would say, to participate in the nervous system regulations act

Dr. Andrew Wong:

of seeing is believing. And sometimes if the rest of society is saying, No, it’s all in your head, and then they’re not actually taking it seriously. Exactly. We’ve been kind of conditioned to that. But yeah, it sounds like this is a big root cause. Yeah, so how do you use this? Go ahead.

Silvia Hazel:

No, I was just gonna save. From the evoke standpoint, that is really helpful, because the amount of people that show hyper vigilance on that evoke scan are quite quite a bit, which that has to do with trauma, you know, that is your brain saying, I’m not safe. So I constantly have to be looking around me scanning for danger, which is what polyvagal theory really is about, it’s this idea of neuroception. So even when you’re not consciously aware that your body is scanning its surroundings for danger, it’s doing that. And so how do we intervene? You know, how do we intervene in that process, which I’m sure we’ll talk about later in this

Dr. Andrew Wong:

podcast. salutely, we’re about to talk about it. But if you’re a patient or practitioner, listen his podcast right now. And you have any trouble with, you know, feeling stuck in your treatment plan. Think about trauma as a root cause of why you might not feel safe to even take that step one. Yeah, please do. Yeah. So what are some? Yeah, I guess we can talk about more how you kind of use this trauma informed approach with your patients? How you, you know, work with a patient partner with them, patient or group of patients, let’s say to kind of get them unstuck.

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, absolutely. So anybody who’s experienced any kind of trauma, again, they’re already in that state of hyper vigilance. They’re looking, they’re, you know, checking, am I safe? Am I unsafe? Is there danger here. So the first step is really kind of to establish that relationship of understanding. And also a validation, like what they’re experiencing, whether it’s chronic illness, whether it’s chronic pain, they are experiencing that, and it is very hard, you know, and I also don’t want anyone to ever feel like what I’m saying is, this is psychosomatic, or this is all in your head, because it’s not. And I’m fully aware of that. So that’s kind of the first step is to establish trust between us. And so the really interesting dance here is, how do we orchestrate working from a physiological level? As far as like, you know, let’s say there’s a chronic infection, do we address that infection first and hope that decreasing the infectious load on the body will help to help the nervous system to reregulate? Or do we do the other is the body, you know, in a state where it’s already like hyper reactive to things. And we need to work on the nervous system first, so that the patient can tolerate things. So it’s kind of this, this dance of like, which do we do, which do we focus on? And figuring that out with the patient and also making sure that they’re comfortable in the process, but I definitely recommend several different types of techniques as far as working on the autonomic nervous system level to patients. And this is going to look different for everybody. And I will also say that trauma work is hard work. You know, it’s not saying that, you know, just taking a pill or a supplement is easy, but it sure is easier than going back revisiting your traumas and kind of working through that process that is messy and ugly and painful. But that is hard work. So you know, sometimes we talk about doing that I definitely recommend to my patients that they have somebody that is qualified to be helping them through that process. And then there’s lots of therapies that I would recommend to help regulate the nervous system in general, you know, body work is huge specifically, myofascial release cranial sacral therapy, those do work on the level of the nervous system. So you know, as we’re trying to remind our mind In our nervous system in our mind, hey, we are safe, we can relax, we can be at ease. cranial sacral therapy and myofascial release are doing that from a physical perspective, they’re telling your nervous system with touch, hey, you can be at ease, you can be safe, there’s no danger here. And of course, it takes time, you know, it takes several therapeutic sessions, I would say, probably to get to the point where the nervous system holds on to that safety, you know, it’s probably going to after the first session, you have it done, and then they bounce back, you know, because it’s been so used to being in that state of danger response. But over time, you really start to see that people will improve. Acupuncture is another great one for the nervous system from like a physical perspective. And then there are lots of resources out there for patients, to help them kind of develop that sense of trust within themselves, and that trust with their body. Because chronic illness and chronic pain, the one of the biggest things that I see is you develop a mistrust for your own body, you know, and that alone is trauma. You know, that’s increased trauma, having a chronic illness, chronic pain, you wake up every day, and you’re in pain that’s trauma in and of itself and in the body. Exactly. Yeah. So it’s kind of a blend of all of those things, but really working with the patient to see what they need.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

I love what you said too, about how kind of going for multiple sessions, because if you think about it, part of undoing that trauma includes, like you said, building that sense of safety. I think on a mechanistic level, we talk about how we can build those hippocampal memory proteins that will kind of change those neural pathways. Yeah, that’s what’s happening with all those, you know, integrative bodywork techniques that you mentioned, whether it’s that it’s a passive kinetic therapy or something that they’re doing themselves at home, some some way to kind of stay, stay with it in a way. So I’m curious how you talk to your patients about how to stay with a program or kind of, you know, travel this admittedly difficult road to deal with trauma? And then you know, and also how do you figure out when to start with them on that versus, hey, maybe you do start with an adrenal supplement first, maybe you do start to kind of dip your toe in the water of healing and taking care of yourself until you get into the more deeper work.

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, so I like to set expectations from the start. So typically, I will make sure that people understand that this is a journey, and it’s not linear. And that’s the first really important thing to know, this is not a linear journey, where you just start and then you end up where you want to be and you’re

Dr. Andrew Wong:

good in my native me curvilinear it’s certainly not Yeah, it is,

Silvia Hazel:

it is cyclical, you know, you’ll get to a place where you feel good, and you feel like you’ve traversed, you know, the, the wilderness. And then you’ll be back in a spot where you feel like things are really hard again, and that is part of the nature of healing in general. This is not just trauma healing, but this is all types of healing. So I tried to set expectations from the start that that’s, that’s what we’re dealing with here.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

What’s in the wilderness. Are there any foxes?

Silvia Hazel:

So, shadows, I would say, Yeah, so there’s a lot of shadows, there’s aspects of yourself that you’re not interested in looking at, there’s aspects of your life you’re not interested in looking at, you know, those are the painful areas that make trauma work, appealing to some and very unappealing to others. So it’s

Dr. Andrew Wong:

the anti Facebook, you know, like, just show only the lights part of the vacations and stuff. Yeah, you know, what do we show to other people? Right, even, you know, well,

Silvia Hazel:

I think a lot of trauma is not being able to look at those aspects of yourself, you know, like, you put them in a box because of something that happened, and it made you feel uncomfortable, and you felt unsafe to be yourself. And so it felt more comfortable to keep those things stuffed down. But in order to really work through that, you have to open the box, yes, you have to open the box, you have to teach through it, you have to see, okay, what aspects of myself, you know, are really things that I’m unhappy with, or were they was was I just unhappy with them? Because somebody told me that those were not acceptable. And, you know, was I a child that was being too rambunctious, and I didn’t feel like it was okay to be me. So I stuffed that down and became this, you know, perfect example of a child, but really, I’m a shell of a person because I don’t feel like I can be myself, you know, those are things that that we think about when it comes to trauma, and it might seem like something that is, oh, you know, everybody feels pressured growing up and stuff like that, but if you changed how you show up in the world, based on any sort of experience, that is trauma, and those are shadows that we need to kind of look through and, and work out and you have to show those shadows, compassion, you know, you have to those were there for a reason. They are a part of you, you know, whether you want them to be there or not.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Yeah, a couple of things kind of come up as you’re talking about this Sylvia is that you know, for me anyway, I definitely went through some, I guess we could call it trauma even in conventional medical training, you know, just from having to toe the line and you know, we’re obviously still doing some conventional medicine here. It’s a blends integrative blend. But you know, you certainly are not meant in the in that type of, you know, educational environment, I would say it’s good at as it as it is to, you know, be yourself. Absolutely. I mean, that’s not really what you’re taught, you know, to kind of toe the line. It’s almost like military, you know, work in a way. Yeah. And so, you know, I think for me, you know, having to kind of thread the needle of, you know, learning more about myself, and light and shadow and integrative health and just, you know, evolving more and to myself, I feel like, we’re all in this journey together, whether you’re, whether you’re listening out there, as a patient, or you know, someone that’s out there listening, this podcast, in general or practitioner, we’re all in this journey together. And I think this kind of work with trauma and really seeing ourselves fully for who we are, and who we are as people and as you connect to each other is, you know, connects us all.

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, absolutely. I would say that, from that perspective, you know, from a more macro level, a more collective level, you know, when we think about where we are as a, as a collective, and there’s lots of judging happening, and stuff like that. And all of that comes from places of trauma from, you know, places of insecurity and not being able to look at ourselves. And so we try and focus our energy elsewhere. And, and so I think, you know, working on our traumas individually, will help us on the collective level hugely, you know, you know, being able to look at ourselves and being like, hey, this might not be my favorite thing about me, but this is me, you know, and I’m okay with that.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

That’s right. So we’re talking about resources to let’s say, someone’s out there, and, you know, how did they get started with, you know, so they have chronic illness? What are some kind of practical resources that you feel are really, really helpful for people just getting started with this?

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, great question. I think that one of the most beneficial things for people is some sort of practice that gets them out of the conscious mind. So that could be as simple as journaling, you know, just like stream of consciousness, like allowing yourself to write down what comes out. And eventually, you might get to the point where you’re like, wow, I didn’t realize I felt that way, you know, and you’ll, you’ll read back what you wrote, and you’ll think to yourself, like, wow, I didn’t realize that this had impacted me so much things will come out. So that’s a really simple way of doing that. That definitely does take time, and it does take practice. But I like to tell people, if you’re willing to do that start with just five minutes a day, right stream of consciousness doesn’t have to be pretty, it doesn’t have to make sense, it could literally just be words, and not in complete sentences, but just getting stuff out, that’s huge. I would also say, you know, from a more formal perspective, that potentially looking into therapies that help you to get out of your conscious mind. So hypnosis is super helpful for that, um, it can be really helpful for trauma in general, somatic experience, technique, also very helpful to help you get into the body. So when we experience emotions, we experience them not only in our mind, but also in our bodies. So if we can learn to discharge that emotion or body, then we’re not storing it there. And we can also more easily discharge it in our mind. So somatic experience is really helpful for that. And then other tools, community, co regulation is huge. I know, we talked a little bit about this before, but if you have just one person that you trust, and you feel safe with, you need to continue that bond. And, and part of that is being that person for for that person as well. You know, so working together, you know, we think about babies and their bond that they have with their mothers, from the get go, we’re learning to co regulate. So babies are born, they co regulate with their parents, you know, whether that’s skin to skin contact, whether that’s nursing, whether that’s just being held by a parent and, and being fed and given a bottle, whatever that is, that’s co regulation. And what we know is that adults also need that. So people who have issues with CO regulation it could possibly be because they didn’t have a really strong framework for that when they were a kid. And so they really have to work hard to establish those strong relationships as adults. Because really, that’s how you get through this. That’s how you feel like you’re worthy. And like you deserve to get through this trauma, and to work through it and to get to the other side. But if you don’t have that, if you don’t have those people in your life that make you feel like you’re worthy and you’re deserving of it, then it’s really hard to get the motivation to go on this journey that is, you know, we don’t know where it’s gonna end. We don’t know where it’s gonna go. It’s this very uncertain journey. And it’s hard to commit to something like that when you don’t have that support in place.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Okay, we’re gonna we’re gonna go real deep into the rabbit hole, but do you feel like our society or how do you feel our society handles or prioritizes community?

Silvia Hazel:

I think that we don’t prioritize. I I would say that I don’t think that we prioritize community in the right way. I think that we prioritize it in some ways, which maybe are less important, and that we don’t prioritize it in other ways. You know, I think we need to focus on connection, you know, absolutely, I think that needs to be the biggest priority. As far as community is concerned, there are amazing things that people are doing around the world, and even around the United States, with communities with living in community with giving each other that community support, whether it’s through, you know, religious organizations, whether it’s just friends that are trying to do that for each other, it doesn’t have to be anything formal. But I think that we, we all have this tendency, and maybe it’s the way that our society is set up. But we all have this tendency to think I’m alone in this. And you’re not, you know, whether whether or not you’re, you’re the only one going through your exact you know, physiological manifestation of what’s happening to you or not, you’re not alone in the feelings. You’re not alone in this journey. Everyone’s journey is different. But if you can have someone there with you, that’s like, Hey, I’m on this journey to better myself to I’m on this journey to, you know, make myself show up feel okay, showing up in the world the way that I am. There’s everybody’s out there doing that. You just have to find the right people for you.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Yeah. And even if people do feel kind of isolated or lonely, that are listening out there, physiologically, Garl all are connected whether or not we think that or not, yeah, we know that from research from Heart Math. Yeah. Kind of electromagnetic fields that are emanate around the heart. Eight feet, you know, each direction. Yeah, and all this stuff. It’s really cool. It is so

Silvia Hazel:

cool. Yeah, yeah, we’re definitely all connected. I mean, that’s the whole idea of the social nervous system, too. It’s like your energy is going to affect my energy, right? You know, whether it’s through your facial expressions, whether it’s through your tone of voice, whether it’s through, you know, your your posture, whatever, whatever’s going on with you is going to affect what’s going on with me. So if we can work out a way to harmonize that, so that we can both move forward together. How, how much better is that? You know, that’s so much better.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

And I have to throw this out there for all the mushroom lovers, but we’re all part of the mycelium. Yes, you know, yeah. So we’re all part of nature. And that’s another pieces, those nature based therapies. Oh, yeah, Tanya landing on I’m doing know her, but she’s really amazing. And she, you know, leads people out, and either retreats or, you know, individual sessions. Yeah,

Silvia Hazel:

I love that. And that’s huge, too. I mean, just the idea of taking a step back, right. So what, especially with trauma, chronic illness, we have a tendency to really get stuck in our own, you know, micro kind of situation that’s happening. And that makes sense. Because what we’re dealing with is really hard, you know, we’re experiencing a lot of pain, or we’re dealing with a lot of manifestations of our chronic illness. And that’s really hard. And it’s obviously hard to just tell your mind, stop thinking about that, because it doesn’t work that way. But getting outside is such a beautiful way of reminding yourself, you’re a part of something bigger. And that alone can be so profound, as far as helping to lift things like depression, you know, that alone, just having a daily practice of getting outside, even if you start with five minutes and work your way up, getting outside, not doing anything looking up at the sky. Or if you have woods near you get out in the woods, but get outside, take your shoes off, put your feet down on the earth, and and doing that has the powerful ability to like just completely change the course of things for you.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

So I’m gonna ask you another question. I think a lot of a lot of patients ask, you know, when dealing with chronic illness or chronic pain, but let’s say that, you know, they kind of come back for follow up, and there’s some, you know, either polyvagal thing going on, there’s some autonomic nervous system imbalance. Sometimes you might get asked things like, well, how, how long do I have to kind of work on my nervous system are kind of even though there’s not a, you know, prescribed or necessarily always predictable time course. And it certainly is not a linear course. What what do you say to people when they’re like, Well, you know, I’ve been trying these things for a long time. And I’ve tried, like, you know, 10 10 billion different types of modalities of trying to EMDR I’ve tried everything. What do you say to a person like that? Who’s, you know, feeling hopeless, really, and trying to try to find some answers relatively quickly?

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, good question. Those are sometimes my least favorite questions, because I feel for those people. But I will say that those modalities are not for everyone. And so it’s really important to pick not only the right one, but also the right order. So this is where, you know, then I take the appointment into how do we get in touch with our body? How do we get in touch with our intuition and what’s right for us? Because, you know, we tend to spend so much time in the conscious mind thinking and using logic and so you know, we read a review and we say, Oh, this worked for this person, this should work for me. I’m going to do that. And then when it doesn’t work, we feel discouraged. But the bottom line is that therapy that might not have been for you. So a lot of times, we just start there, and we say, okay, how do we get in touch with our gut and our intuition and determine what are the right therapies for us. So, you know, typically what I do, I present a bunch of different therapies, I recommend some books to people. And then I say, let’s sit with that. Let’s see what comes up for you. Let’s see how you feel. Now, of course, for someone who’s in a pinch, that might not necessarily work. But at the same time, if you’re in a pinch, you want to choose the right therapy, and you don’t want to waste your time with therapies that aren’t going to work. So it’s kind of like a give and take there. But I would say that typically, that is where I will start with someone who has tried just about everything, and has not gotten, you know, results from that. I’ll start with that. And sometimes, you know, as far as the length of time that, you know, people can commit to this, this is a lifelong process, you know, it might not look this intense forever, it probably won’t look this intense forever, you know, your nervous system support in in a few months might just be you having a cup of tea a day, you know, a cup of tea, exactly. A cup of tea that says to your nervous system, hey, you’re safe. This is for you. You’re taking care of yourself, because your body deserves to be taken care of. And this is nice, nourishing goodness for you.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

So it’s actually studies on that how offering a warm beverage to people regulates the nervous system and calms people down. So thanks. Thanks for offering me some tea here. Yeah,

Silvia Hazel:

hugging a mug.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

I like that’s good. Yeah, maybe eight hugs. And one more. Yeah, exactly. There you go. Nice. So we can kind of wrap up this section of it. But I mean, this is so important. Because when we talk about, you know, functional medicine, integrative health, a lot of people coming in to see us and I think round the globe, even that aren’t in integrative clinics, they have a lot of chronic issues going on, whether it’s physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, or some combination, which you all know, it’s all related anyway. Yeah, absolutely. And then polyvagal theory as a really direct link to this trauma, chronic illness in a way to really get to the some of the root causes, and a really deep and profound, and I would say very meaningful way. Why wouldn’t people want to keep on learning and evolving over time? Right? Yeah, that’s also a big thing. What is one thing? So we wish that everyone knew about this topic, whether it’s practitioner or patient or anyone listening to this?

Silvia Hazel:

Yeah, I wish that people would know that there’s a nervous system component to every sort of illness, and that it is worth your while to dig into it. And not everybody’s ready for that. And that’s okay, too. But the awareness of the fact that you’re not ready is also powerful. Yeah. So just being able to kind of look at that and say, you know, hey, there is a nervous system component to this, I’m not ready to go down that road, yet. That’s a huge step. That’s a huge step. And also, knowing that this is not all in your head. This is not just, you know, just because you have pain, and there’s a nervous system component to it doesn’t mean that you’re making it up or that it’s all in your head, you’re still having that pain, there are physiologic changes happening in your body. So I think that that is huge, because typically when people hear about the nervous system, and they hear about, you know, chronic illness, it makes them think that people are judging them, or people are telling them that it’s made up. And that’s not what this is at all.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

And this system is actually actually directly sometimes verbalized meant to be a sense in your head. Yeah, kind of thing. Absolutely. So that’s, that’s a really great point. And it’s very validating as well, where this might not be a question for just the Dollar Tree or the Five Below store. But what is one thing under $20 That you feel has transformed your own health?

Silvia Hazel:

That’s a great question. So I would say, you know, and you brought this up, but the getting outside piece. That’s huge. It’s free to do. Except for time, it does take time. But once you start doing that, you’re going to crave it, and you’re going to be you’re going to realize you can’t go without it. It does so many amazing things for the nervous system. And it could be you know, if you live in the city, it could be that you just go to the park nearby. If you live in an apartment, it could just mean that you know, you have a lot of greenery inside and you try and spend time outside when you can. I’m a big fan of woods. If you have some woods near you going on a barefoot hike. That is just the perfect reset for me. So I would definitely recommend it for people.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Nice to wear socks on the hike or you just totally and then just watch it afterwards. Nice. That’s really great. And earthing talked about that, too. I know, EJ had talked to me about a website she found her patient found which was 1000 hours.com Oh yeah. 1000 hours outside, basically 1000 hours at tide, which is average that’s about 3.3 or something hours a day, which is I feel like if everyone did that, yeah, it would really help to co regulate and yeah, everything.

Silvia Hazel:

You know, it’s a big thing in the like child rearing community. I do that with my kids, but there’s a lot of parents who are recognizing that you Kids now are very nature deficient. I mean, there’s so many. That’s another rabbit hole. Rabbit. Yeah. But But yeah, there’s a lot of families that are inspired to do this with their children. And I think it’s fantastic.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Have you heard of that? Like is add really ndd

Silvia Hazel:

nature? Yes. Oh yeah, I’ve read all the Robert lube. Yeah. All the all the good

Dr. Andrew Wong:

books. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been an amazing podcast episode and really informative for listeners. And if you’re listening out there and learning more about when to learn more about trauma and chronic illness Sobey is offering a virtual trauma illness group on February 6 at noon, and this group will be available to our patients here at Capitol area of health, you can check out our website or email emails for how to sign up. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Silvia Hazel:

Thanks for having me. It’s great.

Dr. Andrew Wong:

Thank you for taking the time to listen to us today. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to leave us a review. It helps our podcasts to reach more listeners. Don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss our next episodes and conversations. And thank you so much again for being with us.