Episode 26: EJ Meaney, PA-C on Improving Fatigue with Nutrition, Sleep, Gut Health and More

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SPEAKERS: Dr. Andrew Wong, EJ Meaney

Do you find yourself tired even after a long night of sleep? Do you feel like you’re always running on empty. If you resonate with these questions you won’t want to miss today’s conversation with our amazing integrative and functional Physician Assistant EJ Meaney. I am Dr. Andrew Wong co-founder of capital integrative health this is a podcast dedicated to on transforming the consciousness around what it means to be healthy and understanding and exploring the root causes of both disease and wellness.

Today’s guest EJ was inspired to practice as a holistic provider that combines the best of conventional and integrative care. After watching those close to her transform their own health by supporting their body’s own innate healing power . EJ practices integrative primary care and functional medicine in our clinic at capital integrative health and supports our patients in addressing conditions including fatigue hormone imbalance detox issues irritable bowel syndrome and much more join us today for deep dive conversation about fatigue and what you can do to get your energy back again.

Dr. Wong

Welcome EJ to the podcast . Thank youmuch for coming on today. EJ you’ve been at the practice for two years now providing integrative primary care,doing an amazing job and for those of you who may not be familiar with your story would you mind telling us about, what motivated you to get into integrative health?

EJ

Yeah! definitely,my experience with integrative medicine definitely started when I was pretty young. My family kind of ingrained to me that sleep nutrition other lifestyle factors

were synonymous with health. I was thinking about this question and my parents, when we were younger, they used to take nori and roasted pumpkin seeds and they’d wrap the nori up like a cone and put the pumpkin seeds in then called it ice cream cones.growing up those were the ice cream cones.

Dr. Wong

Sounds delicious!

EJ

Yes, it is really good actually. But what moved me to kind of get into more integrative medicine when I was in PA School is kind of when I first started to realize before my experience was hospital emergency-based medicine. I thought naturally that’s

where I was headed. But I never forget sitting in pharmacology learning about hyperlipidemia. Talking about statins and it was the numbers are this level you prescribe statins . I remember at that point being like there’s got to be more there has to be

more to thisthat’s when I really started exploring, looking for an integrative practice and by an amazing series of .I ended up here at Capitol Industry.

Dr. Wong

Happy to have you here and definitely medicine is more than algorithms and thinking inside the box. There’s some room for that, but certainly there’s a lot of room outside of that box too?

EJ

Yeah absolutely!

Dr. Wong

A lot of a wider net of treatment and options and things today speaking of big topics. We want to talk about a big topic today that many people struggle with which is fatigue. People are kind of coming in to our clinic and we see people that even after like a couple cups of coffee they’re like “I feel really tired stellar eight hours of sleep” I’m still tired

how often do you see patients with fatigue and what are some of the classic signs that you find?

EJ

This fatigue is really common, I think anyone you talk to has experienced fatigue at some point in their lives whether this is something acute or more chronic. That they’re dealing with and as a clinician. Fatigue can be a really difficult diagnosis and I think as a patient can also be really frustrating. It’s really important to find a provider who’s ready to work with you to really dig deep and understand what what’s going on and what underlying

causes may be impacting your fatigue.In terms of some of the classic signs there can be a lot of different signs that present but some of the most common daytime sleepiness feeling exhausted brain fog is one big. I’ll see a lot of either mental clarity unable to focus

at the task at hand or just feeling scattered brain I think would be the other thing it can present as muscle pain joint pain inability to recover from exercise things like that one thing that I wanted to say though is the symptom that occurs fatigue is a sign to us. it’s a sign to our body that something’s not right and we need to honor that say that your body is fighting a chronic infection. Something like lyme your body is going to use fatigue as a sign that you need to slow down because it’s trying to protect the immune system. Really listening to our bodies is key during this time.

Dr. Wong

So fatigue is something that is a symptom and as you said there’s many root causes many lifestyle factors many underlying causes as well. Besides lifestyle but it sounds like if we

honor our bodies and listen to our bodies, then we can we can slow down and really allow our bodies to heal.

EJ

Yeah it’s such a big part and in today’s world that is I think one of the hardest things in having that conversation with patients. Because our lives are go go go but maybe, what our body needs in that moment is really that slow down moment.

Dr. Wong

Yeah I wonder if too it’s kind of like. If we’re on the highway and it’s like 55 miles an hour or 65 or 70 and then our body is saying oh you need to go down to 25 but we’re on this like 70 mile per hour.

EJ

Everything’s moving!

Dr. Wong

Everything’s moving that fast

EJ

Absolutely!

Dr. Wong

How do you advise patients to kind of slow down and get off that highway on to some more natural path. That’s a little slower there to honor their bodies.

EJ

Yeah absolutely

Dr. Wong

This is a big question

EJ

I think it’s very patient specific. I love talking with patients to see where are the areas of give . Maybe that’s making a chart right now of things that are giving you energy versus

what is depleting you and how can we kind of compare those things and where can we make some adjustments in order to improve.

Dr. Wong

That’s a great idea and we also talk about lifestyle as a big cause of of both energy and fatigue.

EJ

Let’s go absolutely! Yes lifestyle is by far the fundamental thing when it comes to fatigue that I talk with patients about what does lifestyle include. There’s a few different things and we will dive into these a little bit more but sleep, nutrition, stress management, relationships movement and nature. Are some of the big ones one that I want to add in specifically is definitely screen time and this has become way more of an issue especially in the last two years that more people are working from home spending way more time behind their screens. I actually read a report that the average person spends about eight hours behind either a phone or computer screen. Definitely if you’re working eight hours a day behind the computers take those mornings and evenings away from the devices, because it’ll honor. It will help your health definitely.

Dr. Wong

YeahI think the idea is that when we look at screens for that long it might be actually detrimental to our energy.

EJ

Yes an energy drainer for several reasons. One just the monotony of staring at the

screen. It can deplete not only energy, but you can feel mood changes as well with that. Also we know that it can impact cortisol which is a big thing that can come into fatigue as well.

Dr. Wong

You can stress out the cortisol the adrenal system.

EJ

Yes exactly!

Dr. Wong

Great and on the lifestyle factors kind of you would get into a little bit more of that.

EJ

Yeah! definitely exploring those lifestyle factors a little bit deeper. I think sleep is definitely one of the big ones. So what is the quality of your sleep look like and are you prioritizing sleep right now? If you find that you are and there’s still a lot of daytime sleepiness or fatigue especially when you wake up. I would definitely talk with your practitioner about looking into doing a sleep study. Seep studies can reveal a lot even if you’re not snoring. We do find patients can still have underlying issues with sleep apnea or upper airway resistance syndrome.

Dr. Wong

Do you feel that people view sleep as a barrier to productivity and doing stuff in other words. Sometimes I wonder if people are not wanting to sleep subconsciously because there’s much on their plate and they’re focused on doing they don’t understand. That sleep in and of itself is an active healing process.

EJ

Yes. It is active, so many things are happening in your body while you sleep to restore specifically. Today talking about fatigue, your energy those mitochondria of your cells which we can talk a little bit more about but yes sleep is a very active processI have this conversation a lot especially parents with young kids. They find that the night is the only time they really have to for themselves but it’s it’s really important to make it a priority absolutely.

Dr. Wong

How many people do you find ? when you test them for sleep apnea. Having sleep apnea we know, that the deal here.

EJ

So for most patients that we test, It’s very rare that I see a normal test. Most patients range from somewhere from upper airway resistance syndrome to mild forms all the way up to more severe. But a lot of times it is something that we see very commonly

Dr. Wong

Yeah it’s a big one. How about nutrition, how does nutrition and food play a role in?

EJ

Yes! Nutrition and gut health is huge. We know that from the food that we eat there are nutrients. That we get that really important to fuel our cells. Think of it your cells kind of if we make the analogy to a car we could say, You have an engine and in that car,

you add gas and oil and you do lots of maintenance to make sure that car runs well. You do regular maintenance. I want you to think of your body in the same way that doing that regular maintenance is really importantin. Our own bodies, we have our own engines and they’re called mitochondria that live in our cells and those mitochondria need a few different things. But one of them is the micronutrients that come from our food so some of those may look like magnesium. Your B vitamins CoQ10 amino acids like, carnitine. The first question I always ask people are you eating real food? What does that look like? The second part to this also is are you absorbing the food that you’re eating ? We know that there can be infections in the gut or issues with digestive capacity that can impact the ability of you to absorb and break down those nutrients.

Dr. Wong

Thank you! How about iron deficiency and iron deficient anemia. How often do you find that in your patients?

EJ

Yeah I think it depends on the patient. But it is something that we will commonly find. That’s one of our baselines that we test for here and often it’s not something people may test for up front. But it is really important to look at. Because iron is really important to support those health of the cells, mitochondria and give you energy.

Dr. Wong

So for all those listeners out there and they say well what kind of EJ. What kind of diet should I be on to help my energy, What would you say to that?

EJ

Yes absolutely! I think real food is my biggest thing. I’m not a nutritionist by training but what I found is that nutrition is one of the most confusing topics out there. Often when patients start working with me that is one place that they find very confusing. That there’s a lot of information, so I tend to tell patients eat real food is this something that came from nature or did it come from a package outside of that. I think balancing those macronutrients really focusing more on the protein and fats and maybe a little less carbohydrates now. This can vary patient to patient, but that’s generally kind of my rule of thumb. The other thing I would add with nutrition is water intake, which we often don’t think about but getting enough water in a day is important to properly fuel your body. Typically I tell patients half of your body weight in ounces should be your rule of thumb. A little different depending on if you’re sweating eating other foods that are high in water content.

Dr. Wong

Great thank youmuch! Let’s talk about movement. A bit yes and we can call it exercise we can call it movement. We can call it activity. How do you feel about movement and the ability to kind of overcome fatigue with that?

EJ

Yeah this could be really challenging, because patients with fatigue feel like it’s really hard to get moving. It’s the first part of that they don’t even have the energy to get to that point. It’s really evaluating where the patient’s at and starting at that point movement is essential, though because it actually gives us energy which we often don’t think about. I am really big on movement across the entire day. A lot of times especially in school we talked a lot about exercise. Are they exercising 30 to 60 minutes a day? You know what does that look like but I find that patients do much better with movement throughout the entire course of the day. That that helps them sustain good energy that may look like little small things doing 50 jumping jacks or 10 squats going out for a quick walk for a few minutes. It doesn’t have to be complicated yeah.

Dr. Wong

Don’t have to dress up in fancy clothes go to the gym and well do that.

EJ

Yes absolutely yes and I do like with those things. it does create a sense of community around some relationships. The one thing I do want to say about exercise is that sometimes I find that patients push themselves too hard when it comes to really intense. Maybe strength training or cardiac cardio exercises, so just being really in touch with your body and evaluating is this exercise too stressful for me to do right now.

Dr. Wong

What do you think about working with the trainer or physical therapist?

EJ

Yeah! This is such a great idea. We’re really lucky here to have Dr. Hisa who I know has been on the podcast before but any pt or kind of trainer

is great because they’ll help kind of guide what direction may be good for you what movements may be best for your body.

Dr. Wong

So let’s talk about thoughts and mindset we know that thoughts can heal thoughts can harm and theory so what are your sort of feelings about thoughts in general. Thoughts related to how that affects someone’s energy.

EJ

Yeah absolutely, I think just one thing to say is stress. There’s no shortage of stress and there’s no way we’re ever going to be able to completely avoid stress. It all comes

down to how are we going to manage that stress and that stress may look like external things or it may be internal things. Like you said, thoughts. My approach for this generally I like to see one where patients are at I think positive thinking has many benefits in healing especially when it comes to something that’s as complex as fatigue. Patients with more positive outlook on their diagnosis and where they’re headed tend to be able to stick with treatment plans better. Ultimately get the results that they want. It can be tricky, I love using all of our resources health coaching. It may be working with some type of ,psychologist, social worker to really dig deep and understand what’s

going on there.

Dr. Wong

Yeah sometimes there’s trauma too that can be part of that uncovered. That could be a big impediment. Then once that obstacle’s removed, then they can kind of start their healing journey a bit more absolutely. That’s great besides that what other kind of root causes of fatigue would you say could be kind of giving us an overview of what you’re thinking about.

EJ

One more thing I wanted to say relationships wise is really important for healing especially with something with fatigue. That can be really hard to get jump started to get into that all of these things that we’re talking about. It’s hard to make lifestyle changes. Having that accountability or that relationship is key and in two different ways. I think about this one is that relationships can be either very restorative or draining. Just looking at the relationships you have right now, there are some people you hang out with and you’re like I feel motivated. I want to go out and make that change and other people who will suck the life out of you a little bit.

Dr. Wong

Right! That saying right, we are the average of the five people we hang out. That’s kind of what it is finding people in our lives that that will be restored every regenerative with you versus like someone that’s going to take away that energy so.

EJ

Yeah absolutely and then the other parts of this is the accountability having someone there. That you can lean on to support you, to check in as you’re trying to make these adjustments and changes.

Dr. Wong

Yeah! great absolutely and we also need to talk about nature, The greatest healer likely is going to be getting outdoors and smelling the pine trees and watching the birds and stuff. Let’s talk about nature a bit and are we kind of suffering in our society right now from a nature deficit disorder?

EJ

Absolutely yes! Most of us spend more time inside than we do outside. I know some patients I talk to some days don’t get outside at all which is tough. I think it comes down to a couple different things I think about with fatigue. One is air quality we know that indoor air quality is really poor in a lot of places. Getting outside it produces has that good oxygen which we know we need to feel those mitochondria that we mentioned earlier. The other piece of this is we know nature is very restorative it releases happy hormones like dopamine that can make our power our brains and give us that boost. That we need and sunlight is the other big thing, so I talk a lot with patients about sleep but sunlight is a really important part of thatif patients are having trouble especially falling asleep at night. I always recommend early morning sun exposureas you wake up in the first 30 minutes. If you can get outside, I know it’s a little harder in the winter months but get outside and expose yourself to some of that light can be restorative.

Dr. Wong

Yeah we’ve even seen good results and some of the people in those sleep group classes that we’re dealing with Liz and they’re getting outside in the morning. They’re having candlelight at dinner and then they’re feeling much better. Sleeping better having more energy as a result

EJ

Yeah absolutely that’s great.

Dr. Wong

Let’s talk about a little bit more into the functional side. Root causes of let’s say someone’s done their lifestyle. They’re sleeping well they’ve good relationships ,have good resilience. What’s going on with their energy still and they’re still having fatigue say hey “EJ I’m still two cups of coffee doing lifestyle things still feeling tired” Where do you go from there?

EJ

Yeah absolutely. This is really common, a lot of patients work really hard to get those lifestyle things in check. First thing which we kind of already mentioned is the GUT really looking deeply into the GUT to see. Are there any bacterial overgrowth? Is there issues

with digestion? To make sure you’re absorbing those nutrients. From there, the next place that I would go is looking at thyroid and adrenals probably, which are two of the big culprits. Adrenals this relates to our cortisol relating to stress . We just talked about how important stress management is but definitely digging deeper into this. Is there just dysregulation in the cortisol pattern throughout the day because we know that cortisol will rise into the early morning and then start to fall into the afternoon being its lowest in the evening that you can fall asleep. But many because of the chronic stress that we’ve dealt with many patients experience dysregulations in this pattern getting this tested whether that’s through saliva or urine or even some blood tests can be really helpful.

Dr. Wong

Yeah let’s talk about rhythm. We talk about circadian rhythm a lot on this podcast. Now it’s for day night rhythms. Then there’s something called altradian rhythms which is basically the rhythm during the day that’s kind of this activity and rest cycle and I guess what i’ve been reading about is that we’ve kind of been created or built to have a certain amount of activity during the day maybe 90 minutes. Let’s say and then maybe 20 minutes of rest or relatively less stressful or less busy activity. How much do you think that’s playing into fatigue where people are just kind of go the whole day and then they’re exhausted in the afternoon or the evening and they’re wondering why.

EJ

Yeah absolutely! It’s important to break up your day kind of how you’re mentioning getting those periods of movement versus rest. I see a lot of people who kind of group everything togetheri. t’s all the work over that eight hour stress and stretch and then they’ll get the movement in here. But it’s really the variation there that creates the best energy reserve. I’ll say support to those mitochondria to support fatigue i’ll

definitely the 3pm crash is probably what I hear the most is when patients are really reaching for that cup of coffee to find that extra energy. This is really the point in time when we need to be reaching for things like the movement and the breathing. The self-care management there because that’s ultimately what’s going to stimulate us

get things back on track.

Dr. Wong

Kind of like if we’re having a gas pedal on at 70 miles an hour. From eight to three or seven to three or whatever then of course there might be some people crashing at that point.

EJ

Yeah and we’ve mentioned caffeine a few times which is and interesting. I love coffee I’m not going to tell anyone to stop drinking coffee but it may be exploring if caffeine is one of the big issues that may be depleting your energy. We know that caffeine will initially give us a boost but then once those the caffeine falls off. Those receptors then you can

get the energy crash from that.

Dr. Wong

How many cups are you thinking EJ ? How many cups of coffee do you like to drink?

EJ

I’m just one cup. Usually decaf, sometimes half and half but I noticed that even just making that switch to decaf made a big difference for me. In terms of energy I like the taste of it it’s just purely based off my morning routine. I love that aspect of it but in terms of relying on it for energy I do not typically recommend and if you are drinking caffeine typically cutting it off 10 hours before your bedtime even longer for patients who are caffeine sensitive.

Dr. Wong

That’s good advice. Going back to nutrition for a second, what do you think about morning snacks or afternoon snacks? if someone’s needing a pick-me-up sometimes people are getting hypoglycemic.

EJ

Yeah!

Dr. Wong

And that might be a reason

EJ

Yes! definitely so especially in the afternoon hours I find that even myself that’s when I’m reaching for more of the carbs or the sugar. The chocolate to find that energy boost if you are looking to support especially blood sugar. During that time picking a snack that has some good protein in it some good fats will help sustain your energy. We know too that balancing the meals over the course of the daymore protein and fat compared to carbohydrates can also help to balance that blood sugar. You don’t get those crashes.

Dr. Wong

You have more society and everything.

EJ

Yeah!

Dr. Wong

Great I think we talked about screen time. Quite a bit I know you’re very interested in EMFS and electric magnetic radiation and fields. If you want to talk a little bit about that, a little bit more, how much do you recommend for someone ideally or is it like zero screen time which it might be hard for us all to do but yeah what are we thinking there.

EJ

Yeah ! so I’m hoping that more studies are going to come out especially with the amount of time. We’re using now a lot of the studies that we have right now are only for a couple of hours a day. Assessing on wireless broadband that we don’t necessarily use . Things like 2G and 3G, it’s hard to know exactly. But some of the big things that they’ve found is that our devices do raise our cortisol and our cortisol is our stress hormone. They can make us more stressed which is really interesting. The other thing we know about in relation to sleep is that the blue light and also the EMFS that come off the device can deplete melatonin and melatonin is super important for sleep onset and just sleep in general but it’s also a really important antioxidant that we need to support our immune system as well.

Dr. Wong

Melatonin’s been around for billions of years. It’s very important definitely. That’s great! it’s a great point. Just one more thing about hormones. I think a lot of times and this very well as we’ll be checking people for chord for thyroids. Thyroid in the conventional

type of model they might check more just like TSH or maybe TSH and Free T4 we know that there’s more of a picture and we’re going to probably talk about this at some future podcasts. But how does thyroid affect energy ?

EJ

Yeah, typically low thyroid is what we see with patients who are fatigued. Not that they always have thyroid problems but this is kind of the typical pattern if there is a thyroid issue I feel like patients are pretty aware of this a lot of people will come to me and

say I really want to check my thyroid. What does that mean, that doesn’t mean just looking at a TSH . Really looking at a full thyroid panel TSH, Free T4 your Free T3 which is that

active form of your thyroid hormone. Reverse t3 which can block the conversion to the active forms and then antibodiesis there any autoimmune process that could be going on. It’s the whole picture here that really allows us to know. The thyroid optimal and how can we target our treatment to best support the pathways that are going on.

Dr. Wong

So as you can see as we’re chatting here about fatigue EJ. You’ve been really doing an amazing job of overviewing all this. For all of our , there’s many different possible causes of fatigue. It’s such a broad topic how do where to begin in terms of evaluating and then treating that.

EJ

Yeah it’s tough one thing I do like to ask patients and discuss with them is when were you

lost well, because a lot of patients can pick out a time when things may be shifted. For

example say someone went on a camping trip and they came back with a Bullseye rash and that’s when they knew they were that the fatigue started. Then maybe we start thinking Lyme disease infections. Things like that and I encourage patients to dig deep and really reflect back to when were they last well. What shifts happened at that

time and you may able to figure out for yourself. Okay this is what I was doing that kind of made that difference so that’s one of the first things and then from there the lifestyle the GUT doing . The lab work up they that may include assessing the adrenals thyroid like we discussed but also things like B12 , your Iron, your Magnesium. Those micronutrients that are important to fuel the mitochondria.

Dr. Wong

And we’ve had dr frame who’s a PhD at GW. Talk about vitamin D. Yes tell us more about vitamin D and fatigue and how that kind of works.

EJ

Yeah, one thing I think is really important that some people don’t realize too is that for the body to absorb Magnesium. You need the Vitamin D, which is important. Many people are chronically Vitamin D deficient. Obecause of the sunlight exposure we talked about, we’re just not outside enough, but vitamin D has many impacts and i’ve had patients who take vitamin d who it improves their sleep which is amazing. It’s not just about immune function but there are many other aspects that it can support.

Dr. Wong

My understanding is that vitamin D helps along with the B vitamins to activate the sleep switches. Yes and your brain to like basically keep get those switches online that’s grea.t Well that’s a great overview I think that there are some other sort of not as common but yet we do see them enough in our clinic just to mention as a sort of a an outline. I think as you said if someone has a bullseye rash and they’re having joint pain then that could be a lyme issue yeah how often do you see things like mold and toxins as causes of other symptoms but also as part of that fatigue.

EJ

Y eah and fatigue I will say sometimes there’s not like that one magic bullet sometimes it is the combination of all of these things which is why we really have to think about all

of them

Dr. Wong

So you’re saying there could be more than one root cause.

EJ

There could be more than one root cause.

Dr. Wong

It doesn’t have to be that simple wish it was sometimes.

EJ

I wish it was too and I think patients wish the same thing but sometimes it’s just not that simple. But when it comes to infections that’s definitely one of those things that going back and assessing the history is really important but lyme is definitely one Epstein-Barr is another really common infection that I see. A lot of people have either had previous mono infections that expose them to Epstein-Barr that can cause issues later on. Then to speak on toxins that is definitely another huge topic we are all exposed to toxins and we all have some load of toxins in our body the big thing is the total toxin load. How much can your body handle our, if our detox pathways are really working hard it’s going to be hard to supply energy to the rest of our body to our brains to our musclesthat we feel good when it comes to detox and all these toxins I definitely recommend exploring your own home to see where some changes where. There are some changes that you could make and there’s some good apps out there to explore.

Dr. Wong

And then yeah get outside as well.

EJ

Get out to detox.

Dr. Wong

And get some fresh air.

EJ

That’s good quality air out there well.

Dr. Wong

If you’re looking for a practitioner that can really delve into the root causes of fatigue and do a great job with that. I think certainly talk more with EJ here.

EJ

Yes absolutely I would love to.

Dr. Wong

Thank you EJ. Much and give me some closing questions that are very fun for all of our guests here on the podcast. Thank youmuch for coming on today and let’s talk about your morning routine if you don’t mind.

EJ

yes yeahI love this question because I used to have a great morning routine and then I got out of it which I think happens. Yeah we have something set and then we get out of it but I did mention my cup of coffee which is a little bit therapeutic for me I think it’s just

that time where I get to sit and I don’t have to think about anything else. I always start my day with a cup of water and then my cup of coffee just put that out there hydrate first.

Dr. Wong

Yes

EJ

But that’s something that stayed with me that has just been really meditative and

relaxing

Dr. Wong

aroma of coffee I just had some this morning

EJ

Yes

Dr. Wong

That mold free coffee that we have yeah

EJ

I’ll never forget waking up now even with family around and just smelling the coffee I’m like okay.

Dr. Wong

Yes and it brings back good memories. Yeah that’s awesome that’s great and there’s nothing like the olfactory system the smell system and it just goes right to your brain and activates a bunch of positive chemicals and you know neurotransmitters and things like that well I know you love books and podcaststhis might be a tough question but what book or podcast you’re enjoying the most right now.

EJ

I know I was laughing when I read this question. I love reading booksI recently joined goodreads which is an app. Okay i’ve heard of it before. I’ve heard of it yeah it’s like a social media platform for book readers it’s greatI have friends who follow me and they’ll like comment on like oh you’re 50 done with this bookit’s really fun and you set goals for the year and things like that I love to read anything I recently read the nightingale by

Kristin Hannah okay it’s an amazing book it’s about it’s set world war II and in France and

it’s about two sisters who basically were part of the resistance there

Dr. Wong

Was that a movie? I think it is kind of!

EJ

It’s coming out as a movie if

Dr. Wong

it’s not it’s like it’s definitely movie quality right yes yeah that’s awesome

EJ

I saw that but it was good and I think just to reflect back like we know we never want to forget our history like where we are today and what history has taught us taught us yeah absolutely always learn lessons and yeah kind of.

Dr. Wong

Move forward EJ what do you do every day to cultivate joy and we know that joy is one of the big rude causes of wellness in terms of promoting that energy.

EJ

Yeah definitely, connecting with the people I love absolutely laughing with them dancing is one of my favorite. I love a good kitchen dance. Party nice just connecting with those people makes me feel grounded and like I could take on anything.

Dr. Wong

Yeah that’s great thank youmuch EJ for coming on today and how can listeners learn more about you and work with you.

EJ

Y eah right, through the Capital Integrative Health website you can learn more about me and feel free to schedule with me.

Dr. Wong

Great! thank you much EJ. Thank you for taking the time to listen to us today. If you enjoyed this conversation please take a moment to leave this review it helps our podcast

to reach more listeners. Don’t forget to subscribeyou. Don’t miss our next episodes and conversations and thank you so much again for being with us.