Episode 38: Clinical Herbalist Colleen Zuntag On The Sacred Knowledge Of Plants

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SPEAKERS: Cristine Gordon , Coleen Zuntag

Dr. Wong

Today we are bringing you a special episode with guest host Christine Gordon. I am Dr. Andrew Wong, the host of this podcast and co-founder of Capital Integrative Health. This podcast is dedicated to transforming the consciousness around what it means to be healthy and understanding the root causes of both disease and wellness. We are expanding our podcast which I’m very excited about to include conversations that explore all faces of the mind body and spirits. Today’s co-host Christine is the practice administrator of Capital Integrative Hand as an herbalist and yogI herself. She has a very unique view of integrative health, today’s guest is Colleen Zuntag. A clinical herbalist and mentor of Christine believe that health challenges and suffering can be powerful tools to reconnect us to our inner light. Our ability to be well even within illness. She works with her clients to understand how plants are wonderful allies as we travel the road to wholeness. Helping us build resiliency and deeper self-awareness. Please enjoy this conversation with Christine and Colleen as they explore herbal medicine and how colleen works with their clients using the infinite wisdom of plants on their healing journeys.

Cristine

Welcome Colleen, Thanks for joining us today. Thank you!

Coleen

Thanks for having me.

Cristine

I am so excited to have you here. We’ve been friends for a long time and and colleagues as well and I remember the first time meeting you way back one time in a class herbal class. Many months ago and then again at smile herb shop, when you were there in the free clinic and also on the floor and I remember watching you thinking wow this woman is really holding this sacred knowledge with such grace and has such reverence for the plants and I just wanted to know more of you and more about you and listening to you. I learned so much just on the periphery you know and then getting to know you a little bit more over time, not only learning about plant medicine but learning about relationships. How do you so meaningfully cultivate relationships not only with the plants but with the people? You’re interacting with and partnering with them on their healing journey in a way that is so beautiful and open. So honored to have you here.

Coleen

Well, thank you Christine! That’s thank you, I’ remember meeting you too on the floor.

I remember vaguely the class.

Cristine

A long time ago

Coleen

With Casey Khalsa, the Ayurvedic instructor and being on the floor at the smile which was such a great place and you held a really wonderful place there. For that healing to happen for those healing conversations to happen with the people who came into the free minI clinic and between ourselves to talk about the plants.

Cristine

Yeah! good days, good times. So let’s talk about what you do. What is an herbalist ? What does an herbalist do?

Coleen

Oh wow okay there are a lot of different ways to be an herbalist I think you can be a person who’s connected to your ancestral knowledge. That your family has this knowledge that’s been passed down through generations. Upon generation of just being a kitchen herbalist, like a family herbalist you have this knowledge from your ancestors these memories of seeing people in your family support somebody with herbal medicine in your family who is sick tending to them with the plants and that can be a profound way of carrying on knowledge. It’s not formal training but that’s still herbalism and that you continue that with your family and your friends and you spread that through your community there are people who don’t have that ancestral knowledge but still love the plants and love being in nature and want to support their family and friends. With plant medicine so they will study on their own they’ll have conversations they’ll connect to other communities to learn and that’s still herbalism and that’s the beauty about herbalism I feel like because it’s not so regulated. I mean in certain cases we do need to have guidance I mean we’re dealing with certain health issues definitely there needs to be a level of training and knowledge so we don’t harm that we first do no harm we can do support but then there’s also the naturopath doctors who also herbalist some are herbalists some are not and there’s just a clinical herbalist which is what I do I’m a clinical herbalist I’ve had training in the clinical setting and that’s what I do. I support people with plans to manage their health concerns, mental, and emotional physical.

Cristine

Spiritual

Coleen

Spiritual yes

Cristine

I have had the benefit and honor to be a client of yours and so I want to share just a little bit about that and ask you having partnered with you on my healing journey and experiencing positive outcomes and not only in my physical body but in my emotional well-being and my spiritual well-being and I know there have been many times where we’re talking about plants and you might say oh this plant feels right for you. This plant feels right for you and more often than not that has been a plant that has impacted my spiritual wellness in some way. I’m wondering what that’s like you know when you’re partnering with a client and you’re thinking about the plants and calling on the plants how does that work how does that work in your practice?

Coleen

Well, I’ve thought about this a lot because I don’t. it’s I try to be an open vessel, that I want the information to flow through me and that doesn’t mean that I’m just willy-nilly randomly saying. This plant you know it’s coming to me it’s popped into my head but it comes from a

baseline of training and experience with the plants of study and self-study but also study with plants and studying with other teachers. I think one thing about herbalism that’s important is the lineage I mean who you studied with and how that is translated into the work you do yeah so the information is not mine I don’t feel like it comes through me from the depth of study breadth of study which I’m always learning and always studying more and

more as I grow as a person and so that’s what happens. It comes from that place I’ve plenty of times I’ve had a plant come in and I’m like wow I haven’t worked at that plant before and I wouldn’t have thought that here and then Id bring it up to the client. Like to you and you’re like oh I was just thinking about that plant last week. That has happened with us and I’m like okay I guess this is it and then I’ll go back and do some background, do some studying somewhere digging on to the plan. After I’ve met with my client and it’s like oh wow this is perfect for that person and I feel like the information is coming through me but it’s to stimulate the client’s own innate intelligence. Their own of connection with their own body and I feel like as they’re telling their sry. Their narrative of their experience with their health and consultations can be quite you know a good amount of time. Times important to be able to listen and for somebody to articulate their

experience the plans come through and it’s to turn I want my hope is to turn them back to

their own listening to themselves as they’re telling the story they can hear their experiences and hear it sequentially or not sequentially and they make their own connections and in that way really the person is their own healer.

Cristine

It’s empowering, it feels like right I mean once you are sharing that information I feel like you know the client holds on to that and it also gives them some some skhe game.

Coleen

Yeah!

Cristine

Well you know it feels like you know it’s an empowering prospect to to feel like oh this feels right and then learn more about the plan and really recognize thwow this is the right the risk is the right plan. It validates that intuitive hit right you know. I think herbalism is about sovereignty over your own health to be able to make your own health choices and decisions about how you want to manage your health.

Coleen

That’s so important

Cristine

About accessibility, I mean not everybody can afford to go to a natural doctor which is wonderful to have that option but not everybody can do that and it takes a lot of time and testing and things to go through those processes but to have access to plants that you can easily purchase at you know 3 dollars an ounce you know or and grow your own medicine.I mean that’s about you know having that independence and that sovereignty and that ability to make your own decisions about how you want to manage your health and plant medicine offers that I believe it’s important. I think going back to health sovereignty and equity and accessibility we know herbal medicine is not covered under health insurance right. So what is the herbal community doing to create access to care, I mean I know you are very generous with your time and volunteering in a free clinic but as

a whole in general is there any information that you can share about how one might access herbal medicine in a way that’s affordable?

Coleen

I would say you can go to the American herbal scale website ahg.org I think it is and they can connect you with herbalists in your area and from there you can go find they can and they can connect you with even more free resources or affordable resources. I offer a sliding scale to my clients no background check or financial disclosures are needed. I trust that process, that’s what I would think, and smile does I have for that free minI clinic on thursdays people can call me from 2 to 4:30.

Cristine

That’s so great I I love that you guys are still doing that. You know we here at Capital Integrative Health we those issues are super important to us and so you know access to care and inequity and health sovereignty as well so it feels good to have that common thread you know in the work that we’re doing here at the clinic and also what’s happening out in the community especially free clinics and things like that it’s so great to know that because having connections with other practitioners really is the way it is a good service to offer yeah it just feels right it’s the right thing to do right yeah so let’s talk about what herbal medicine means to you and why were you drawn to it.

Coleen

Oh boy, when I went many months ago my oldest child is going to be 29 so when I was pregnant oh mama with my firstborn child I did not want to go to the hospital and so it was I belong to a co-op and I thought of myself as a healthy person back then and I was in there telling one of the other women. I really don’t want to go to the hospital she’s like you can have a home birth and I’m like what I’ve never heard of that and so, of course, I was completely on board and and my partner at the time was not on board and so we did some investigating let’s interview an obstetrician and let’s interview a midwife and at that

time I was in Colorado and home birth was illegal. It was underground they legalized it while I was pregnant, so that was great but my practice, but it felt right to work with the midwife and I purchased a book called the Magical Child by Joseph Chilton-Pierce and it really shifted my perception of my place on this in this on this planet and my connection to other beings on this planet and what it meant to be a mom and have a natural birth and being connected to nature so it’s about having safe space for the mother for the the womb actually the latin root of matrix means uterus or womb.

Cristine

That’s right

Coleen

And that’s one of the you know primary things we all need is humans as a safe space and the uterus and the womb is such a great you know. A safe space and so I just dove into that reading and learned more and more about what it means to be connected to nature and the natural world ended up having to transport in the hospital. I wasn’t able to have a home birth with that child the second when I did but it just started me on that journey to go into what itand means to be connected to nature and to live as a human one other being on this planet there’s plants there’s animals and that’s what started me.

Cristine

Yeah getting back to your roots so talking about that ancestral you know I feel like we’re so far detached from from all of that so it sounds like you really were inspired to start to go back and get in touch with your self and your ancestors and and what’s natural.

Coleen

Yeah it was but, I my family was not it was a disjointed family. disconnected, divorced family. My parents were I didn’t know, they didn’t know anything about their ancestors much except for my father. His polish grandmother would do mustard packs and do everything natural for them and my stepmother is german and she came here from germany when she was 19 and she did natural basic things chamomile tea you know wrapping your neck keeping your feet warm.

Cristine

All the important things

Coleen

Yeah and those all those things connected and just helped me. Like yes this is what I want to do, this is who I am this is how I want to live in my body listen I want to live my experience on this planet.

Cristine

It is a way of life right yeah, it is yeah

Coleen

I don’t think herbalism. That’s who I am, it’s not the work I do.

Cristine

Not what you do is who you are

Coleen

It’s who I am I love that I love that

Cristine

So what is the biggest lesson that you’ve learned so far from being an herbalist I know there are so many can you pick one. I don’t know but yeah I mean yeah.

Coleen

I’m a baby herbalist so even though I took my first training. well, my son was two when I first took my first training. I took nine-month training back in Colorado and studied with some excellent herbalists Linda White, dove Bridget Mars, Feather Jones like real western women.

Cristine

Yeah right

Coleen

They are telling their experiences of sitting on the mountain and talking aboutand plants tasting the root of Osha. Which is a rocky mountain herb it’s amazing.

Cristine

Bare medicine

Coleen

Bare medicine those aromatics and I just love stories and I was drawn into those stories and their experiences and so I forgot your question.

Cristine

Yeah, the biggest lesson is so far.

Coleen

Is to listen and to slow down and what does certain. I mean it’s important to me to be of service while I’m on this planet. To whoever you know the plants, the animals, the ground, the rocks, whatever the people I interact with and being in that experience you get tested. You know if that’s my, my longing and I feel like our longing helps inform our choices and what we want to do in our lives and how we want to live, what avenues we’re going to go down, but my longing and my desire is to serve and is to serve with plants and be connected to nature because I love the cycles of nature and I love the cycles of life of you know what it means to be a baby a middle-aged person and a menopausal woman which is I mean that I’m going into the Crohn’s phase of my life right now yeah.

Cristine

I love that let’s talk about that word chrome. Okay, let’s do it yeah, because we hear that a lot in herbalism. I think you know the maid. the maiden, and the crone and you know it’s a whole other topic but the language around herbalism. You know it’s almost like its own language and you know saying you’re a baby herbalist when I think of you I think of you are one of my dearest mentors and we have in common. A wise woman friend Stephanie whom I know, we both loved very much. Who’s not with us anymore but left behind lots of lessons for a lot of people and when I think about entering into this crone phase I just wish that we had a different name you know like but the language around herbalism is so interesting to me. You know it’s there’s a lot of I think going back to like we Hildegard of Bingen. Whom you, we don’t get to later but you know the language from that like 1400’s all the way up hasn’t really changed all that much in herbal tradition and teaching don’t do you find that to be true.

Coleen

It is because it’s deep. They’re deep roots yeah. This is we’re talking about western herbalism you know in Ayurveda and chinese medicine same they have this longevity of practice and I I’m formally western trained. Mostly western trained but I have some training in Ayurveda. My first year, my other program I went through was Kp Khalsas’ of course.

Cristine

Can’t get more ayurveda

Coleen

He’s still one of my mentors. I still work with him when I have challenges but so and their language is the same also because I mean deep truths stay the same while there might be change in other ways and we’re you know we are changing and then you know the culture is changing. All those other things but these deep truths about what it means to live a life on this planet are the same we do start off as a woman we do start off as a maiden some people would say the virgin but then we can argue about that word right yes that’s what that really means we’ll stay away from that list a sovereign unto herself really.I like that someone yes that doesn’t belong to someone but then there’s motherhood I mean not that you have to be a mother but it’s just and then the Crohn phase or the wise woman phase you can use the wise woman I like to call it. The wise if you want to go and it’s not about. It’s about just having a body of life that you’ve lived a body of work that you’ve created mistakes you’ve made and trying to learn from yeah embrace those two that’s just different and I feel different as I’m you know I’m gonna be

56 next week’s my birthday actually full disclosure next week and I do feel the shift physically in me and in Ayurveda, we’d use different words we use you know Kapha is the and this would be for men and women that’s the beginning phase we’re fat and juicy yeah potential you know the seed that’s in the ground that’s potential and that’s the impact.

Cristine

The new earth that yeah

Coleen

And that’s what the Kapha stage is and then the middle stage is the pitta stage that fiery stage when we’re like pursuing our purpose and what we want to do in the world and how we want to bring our desire and our longing out and how we want to express that and then the vata stage is you know this the last part of our life which can be a long time you know. I’ve seen traditionally starts around the age of 60 and those have energetic patterns. Language, these deep truths are timeless and the energetics of a person the energetics of life those states and you know plants have energetics we all energies everywhere and I don’t mean that in a woo-woo way yeah totally kind of an embodied way I mean what it means to be embodied with these energetics in our body and how do we integrate our experiences you know I it’s important to me I really believe that the body is a record of how we’ve lived our life oh wow.

Cristine

Isn’t that an interesting way to think about it yeah right

Coleen

Every experience we’ve had. Every impression how we process that experience what’s happened to us and how we integrate it how we can we integrate it and it you know there’s that book by Gaber Mate the body keeps the score I think he wrote that was that him or is it I know that when the body says no.

Cristine

Yeah, I know the book but I’m not true.

Coleen

But it is true you know. Gil Headley is a bodyworker and he says that the body is the sacred transcript upon which we write our lives.

Cristine

Oh my gosh, I love that.

Coleen

in that way, it’s a record and it is a truth and it’s you know I think I rambled off your. question

Cristine

No no, it’s great thinking about yeah no great I mean I love all of that and talking about energy. it’s meaningful right I mean energy is real we all are affected or impacted by it and I’m thinking right now these plants that you brought this lovely stinging nettle and salam and seal and you know the energy that they’re bringing into the room is just like you know hey guys thanks for coming and knowing that they’re medicine and they are here and it feels it changed the energy shifts in the room when you bring in something alive and so yeah the energy definitely a real thing so let’s talk about who could benefit from herbal medicine.

Coleen

Everybody yes, everybody can be an herbalist and can e,verybody can benefit from plant medicine.

Cristine

I wonder what about people who are on pharmaceutical medications. Oftentimes I know we are asked the question, you know oh I’m on one through ten western pharmaceuticals is it okay and safe for me to take herbs so how would you decide I mean what was the general rule of thumb there?

Coleen

Well, it is tricky I mean and you do have to take that into consideration because um you know it’s serious. It’s very serious and you don’t want to cause any harm and disrupt it’s not just the interactions with the plants the medicine to me I mean because that is one piece of it right you have to think about the chemical reaction that could possibly have happened although It’s very very rare it is very rare I mean you should work with an experienced clinical herbalist who knows about these things and who can study and speak with confidence and some knowledge about it, but it’s not just about that you don’t want to disrupt the person’s healing protocol. I mean if they and I’ve had plenty of people who come to me or I’ve seen them at the herb store and say hey I want to manage my blood pressure naturally so I’m not going to take my medication. Well, they don’t take the herbs seriously enough.

Cristine

Yeah!

Coleen

They think if I take this cup of herbal tea it’s going to manage my blood pressure if I do it once a week, once or twice a week. But herbal medicine is serious medicine it takes a thoughtful thorough assessment of a person and thoughtful thorough consideration of the plant’s actions and the person’s whole health history and how to formulate a protocol

not just about herbs but how to integrate them with what they’re doing already because the body you don’t want to swing from one extreme to the next because that’s going to destabilize the person and their health so it’s really important to do things slowly and to integrate the herbs slowly into the person’s life besides thinking about chemical constituents and possible harmful reactions. That way like how can you not disrupt what’s keeping them stable now and how can you honor and do this slowly so you don’t cause more harm?

Cristine

Yeah

Coleen

Yeah that’s important is it common for you to work with other medical professionals with the client well? I am open to it and I have talked to a couple of medical practitioners for my clients with them to talk about what we’re doing they don’t take herbalism seriously the ones I’ve talked to well.

Cristine

We do here at capital integrative health

Coleen

How do you talk to anybody and can have conversations if we’re partnering. I’d love to partner I mean I’ve partnered with a naturopath for a client who is going into kidney failure. I was still in a Clinton clinic as a student so that was way beyond my scope of practice they were on 13 medications and when they came to me. They had itchy skin so I thought I can handle itchy skin yeah. I’m an herbalist, I can do that but months after working with them they finally sent me there and this is was a lesson I learned you should get the information ahead of time, but this was my friend’s father and I said I can just give him teas and do topicals and talk about that but when I got his blood work in it was he was going into kidney failure and I could see it and nobody was telling them him that in his practice oh he was a veteran and he was going through the va system now I can’t diagnosis that’s out of my scope of practice and I don’t ever want to do that. I contacted a naturopath Eric Yarnell and who’s also an herbalist.

Cristine

He’s that best dear!

Coleen

Right, best deer yeah and he has a private practice that yeah we can link that if that’s important to people he’s amazing and so he took over that part of the client’s protocol and we worked together. I was able to sit in on the consultations and you know talk to Dr. Yarnell about these things.

Cristine

As a budding herbalist with eric Yarnell so that was like that should have been a sign of your destiny.

Coleen

I will call and talk to anybody who will talk to me as a partner with me to help somebody who’s suffering. I think, I mean many hands make light work they say about physical labor but even managing somebody’s health care it can get cloudy but if we’re clear and we’re talking about what our roles are we can all support this person and come together and be like a round table and really serve somebody to meet their health goals they’re willing to do the work you know it’s a lot of work what this person had to do.

Cristine

Yeah! working in community, you know working collaboratively I find those are the

best experiences right yes the best healing experience.

Coleen

Yeah because you know herbalists, I feel like I’m an island. Sometimes you know because it’s so different. I’m not in a group practice like a lot of doctors work in a good practice so I will reach out and I I love working with other people I have so much to learn so yeah.

Cristine

I’m wondering about talking about using herbal medicine in conjunction with western medicine from an integrative perspective or functional medicine perspective here we’re always trying to get to the root cause right.

Coleen

Yes !

Cristine

Pardon, so it seems it feels to me like using plant medicine it’s not prescribed if you will in a way that typical conventional medicine is prescribed right. It’s looking at the whole person yeah and can we talk more about that about how that works how you’re actually formulating for a client and how it is because the root cause getting to the root cause would be the objective right it is.

Coleen

Yes, you do need to get to the root but it can be a lot of you know assessing and getting through waiting through the mud to get there and so how do you support the person in the meantime and so and herbalism? I consider myself a Western herbalist who supports the vitality of the person the innate vitality and innate wisdom of that person’s body to heal itself and we can talk about what the difference between healing and curing is because there is before I lose track. I want to make sure I give this because this is such an important question is that holism means you’re looking at the whole person and how they respond to life not just what’s happening in their body like how they integrate great experiences and how they manage their health I mean I do believe our body is the most sacred and intimate relationship we have. I mean it’s the most intimate relationship we have and we’re so close to it, but we neglect it so much. It’s you know it’s too close maybe you know we forget how close we are to our own physical being and so it’s so easy to neglect it but an herbalist and how I practice as an herbalist is to look at the energetic

patterns in the person and so you know western herbalism all herbalism has some form of this energetics and so we’re not looking at the disease we’re not saying oh they were diagnosed with congestive heart failure. I’m going to treat congestive heart failure with a B or C herb that would be a baby because it doesn’t work. It’s not a plug and play. it’s not a plug and play for sure and so that’s just like using pharmaceuticals I mean you know I’ve got the symptom I’m going to take this pharmaceutical. It causes thesplug-and-playe side effects I’m going to take these other pharmaceuticals to help mitigate those side effects of that.

Cristine

Which is very common

Coleen

It is common and we do need pharmaceuticals they’re life-saving. I mean we do have to have them especially when we’re created if we want to change patterns of behavior and that’s one thing one of my teachers really taught me that was such a good lesson is behavior and changing patterns of behavior. It takes time you know we have an awareness of oh I do this in my life this is just simplistic I eat ice cream every night two bowls of ice cream every night because I have acid reflux and I and it hurts that’s the reflex I want something cold thinking that’s gonna help heal it because it seems like opposites can help.

Cristine

Yeah it makes sense

Coleen

It’s hot in there I’m not saying that and that can be medicine and of itself, there are all kinds of medicine right you know just the pleasure of eating something delicious is medicine but you know that’s not necessarily healing. The way to heal you want to look at what you know what they have hypochlorhydria. Do they have low, are they cold and deficient in their digestive secretions? Are they taking PPIS, but they don’t they are consistent with them and they take them for a week. Then they go off a couple of days and then their body makes too much acid reflux that’s the behavior piece but if a person has I think energetics are really easy to see if you think about respiratory issues so if they have a lot of mucus and that’s stuck in their body you know that’s like a deficient ability to express the mucus but it’s also the stagnant gunky stuff so we have to look at how do we move that out of the body.

Cristine

And that would be dependent on the person correct it’s not again you don’t just pick one or two herbs and say this is going to do this for this person.

Coleen

Right it’s their energetics it’s what’s their constitution are they already a hot dry person or are they a cold damp person and we’re all we’re mixtures of each of these things right we have a baseline constitution and then we might have a condition that is like if we got you to know got a cold we got a lung infection we got this dampness in our lungs we might already be a hot dry person but we happen to have this damp wet condition in our lungs.

If we do too much drying herbs we have for too long we might throw them into a tailspin and if they’re already their baseline constitution is hot and dry so you have to consider that when you’re considering the person.

Cristine

I think that’s so important because generally speaking, you know I think there is a common misconception that herbs are plug and play yeah, and that you know valerian is for sleep and ashwagandha is for stress and that may or may not be true for different people yeah right and you and again going back to what do we do. First do no harm and so like you said giving drying herbs to someone with a dry cough you know right not so good.

Coleen

No definitely not so good and you assess that by you know looking at their tongue, feeling their pulse, listening their story, feeling their skin, you know anyway.

Cristine

looking at their tongue it’s so fun I know so where are you headed where are you headed with herbal medicine.

Coleen

Well, I just came out of a long few years of being outward and I’m feeling the call to be more inward.

Cristine

So brave of you

Coleen

It’s like so counterintuitive because the culture so is out there market yourself do this and this and I’m like I need to come in so I’m going outside more I know that’s um but to be more connected to my plants. I’m building and creating my own medicine garden in my yard so I’ve been planting plants and it’s so important for me to. I’m not a gardener, I’m not a person I always say I have to have plants that can thrive on neglect.

Cristine

I can think of one right here this is the stinging nettle they’ll do go anywhere

Coleen

Yeah we have stinging nettle salmon seals the same way it doesn’t need shade but so that’s I just want to have my hands back in the soil instead of being on the computer and teaching and having all the energy. Going out I feel like i can’t serve if I’m not filling myself up and staying connected that I can’t do my work.

Cristine

That’s so wise

Coleen

You’re a wise woman

Cristine

You know to really really to think about this is what I need in order to move forward and go inward and really reflect. I know you’ve been a super busy person for a long time so I think that’s going back to basics right taking care of ourselves. First taking care of our physical body that we are often so far detached from yes but I love this image of you in your garden planting your medicine and tending to your medicine so I’m wondering are you making medicine with the plants you’re growing.

Coleen

I will be right now I have some plants that I’ve been growing for you know a long time 15 years or so Apothecary Rose is one of my favorites so I make medicine mostly for myself or certain conditions as they come up for clients like post-cover pneumonia. I’ve made medicine from things like that in my garden for that kind of thing.

Cristine

What are you using generally for post-COVID pneumonia? I know it depends on the person but those are the persons we just said that I know but just I’m super curious about post-COVID.

Coleen

This one person there’s one person and I just made this medicine this wasn’t necessarily for my garden except I did use rose petal honey in the recipe that’s for my garden I make rose petal honey and roses are great medicine to help us connect our hearts which is so important to me but I used Asha root. We talked about Asha I used angelica archangelica warming I used warming aromatic herbs but also I used holy basil tulsI one of my favorites yes it is warming this person is very cold and they’re dry normally but they have a damp condition in their lungs we were just talking about that it’s funny so the honey is going to help with that also and then she’s also taking another syrup with marshmallow root yes and some cardamom and ginger.

Cristine

I love your recipes I’m always excited when I get formulations from colleen for a couple of reasons not only do you make them taste so yummy there’s always a sprinkle of cinnamon or cardamom or something yummy that’s also useful but I love I I know that you formulate with intention and so we can let’s talk about that let’s talk about formulating with the intention not just okay I know what this client needs I’m going to put together two parts of this and one part of this and a half a part of that having known you and how you formulate I just feel like oh well if the ou’re going to get the medicine you need to get from Colleen because not only are you getting the benefit of the plant medicine but you’re getting her healing intention her vibe if you will.

Coleen

It feels a little embarrassing to talk about this because it’s so intimate um but I do that’s what my intention is when I’m making medicine I turn off all distractions I make sure I’m fully present and holding the person in my heart I might turn on some good vibey music

that’s love full of love because yeah oh this is the energy it’s all healing energy yes so beautiful yeah and the true medicine to me is the love and the intention I mean medicine comes in so many ways right? Somebody loves music and that helps them heal somebody loves connection with another person. Somebody likes to rock out to music that could be their medicine too but for me as the person who’s creating the formula and my intention and my presence is part of that medicine and so I want to make sure that I’m fully present for them and I’m holding them in my heart and imagining them in their wholeness. Not in their disease state because they are whole and they have this condition also so they’re all these things and so I don’t want to focus just on the pathology like oh they have this may they be healed I hold just the essence of who they are in me, while I’m creating that medicine because they are whole and they have this condition and so to me, that’s healing, not curative. It’s curative but it isn’t curing so curing I think our western idea of what curing is is that we won’t have the disease anymore and that we will be completely cured hallelujah you know I have no more symptoms and I can get back and I can go eat whatever I want but to me, I can be whole and in the healing process while we have our condition I mean I have lupus I was diagnosed with four autoimmune disorders when I was I mean I started my early 20s you know it took him a long time to find out uh what was going on and I’m living with these conditions health and I’m healed through that.

Cristine

And thriving

Coleen

And thriving yeah and I mean you know healing an illness can be a metaphor for what how we interact with our life so to me I looked at it that way my me and my relationship with I don’t what does autoimmune mean to me so that’s what I love how I how I went through that process of healing.

Cristine

Could you say again curing versus healing can we just I want to make sure we hear that clearly sure um I.

Coleen

So I was raised this way and I think a lot of people in the western world when I talk to other people I hear. This common thread is that curing or healing means you’re cured like you will never have this illness again and that you’re completely finished with it but I don’t think of healing that way. I think of course you want to live comfortably in your body you want to reduce suffering. I want to you know reduce the suffering in the person and but the work is to integrate what’s happening to you. You might never get a lab report that says you’re cured from lupus or you’re cured from celiac disease or you’re cured from congestive heart failure because that’s something that is progressive there’s a truth in what’s living it happening in your body and it doesn’t have to be a negative thing you can thrive with that and be healed and that’s healing to me how you relate to what’s happening to you like how you integrate it into your life how you come to peace with it and how you can manage it so I think if you have this inner conflict like if I can’t be perfect with my diet if I can’t be perfect with my herbal protocol or with my whatever it becomes like a self-hating.

Cristine

Yeah, you’re kind of boxed in

Coleen

Right yeah yeah and it inhibits your wellness and it inhibits your ability to feel good in your body and feels good with these. What it means to be human we are in these physical bodies that do keep track records of what happens to it it can’t help it it’s not a judgment, it’s just it is.

Cristine

I’s a story

Coleen

Yeah, it’s a story and it’s okay and it doesn’t mean you’re a failure. It just yeah how do you integrate it and reduce suffering?

Cristine

I love that thank you it’s so great so let’s talk about what offerings do you have and how can people get involved.

Coleen

Well, I’ma very low tech, so I don’t have a website. I love that about you too you can call me and email me.

Cristine

So you don’t have a lot of screen time

Coleen

I try to reduce my screen time as much as possible yes you know and I’m also at smile herb shop Tuesday afternoons you can come see me then and I offer a free mini-clinic Thursday afternoons right now I’m just doing that via the phone I used to do it in person but too many people were coming that are at risk into the store with really with severe vulnerabilities for their health so I didn’t want to continue to do too much from 2 to 4 30 on Thursdays people can call and we can have a conversation.

Cristine

What does a consultation with an herbalist outside of the minI clinic I know at the mini clinic you’re kind of scratching the surface and treating symptoms and you know if you need to go deeper you’re asking people to make an appointment yes if one were to make an appointment with you as an herbalist or any herbalist what would one expect what would that look like?

Coleen

Well, you’d have to fill out a long health history form, super long I think it’s like I think I’ve got it down to nine or ten pages. It has energetic assessment questions on it also family history personal health history how you’re relating to your life right now that kind of conversations and lab work I do review lab work and I do actually work with other colleagues if something’s beyond a little my scope of practice and I want to get more information I bring other colleagues into my separation from the actual consultation to view it and then we’ll have a conversation we’ll talk about what you’re experiencing in your body and in your life and how you want to management manage it and we’re collaborating and having a conversation on what herbs can do and what they can’t do talk about expectations talk about time frame talk about what it means to actually take plant medicine because it’s not always delicious.

Cristine

And it’s not always immediate

Coleen

And it is definitely almost always not immediate, yeah and so definitely, I want to reduce suffering as much as possible for sure and we try to work on that we talk about that I think sometimes just knowing how that it’s okay. That suffering is going to take the getting past these acute symptoms is going to take time that can actually, cause some less tension in the body and so people can reduce that but then we have a conversation we talk about and then I and then I will make a formulation and then bring that to my client.

Cristine

What about teaching are you teaching these days

Coleen

I’m doing a little bit I was teaching for a long time I was teaching for about five years and I just I pulled away from the formal classroom and decided to keep it small I’m going to teach my first class at smile actually in the middle of May outside.

Cristine

Congratulations outside in the garden.

Coleen

In the garden!

Cristine

How do we sign up

Coleen

It’s a very small class, but you can go on Eventbrite and smile herb shop it’s on nettles so I’m gonna make nettle food and talk about nettles and I’m also doing things that I’m teaching at a women’s shelter teaching.

Cristine

Ah! let’s talk about that yeah what’s going on there?

Coleen

I’m just going to there already is a lay herbalist working with them and this is her passion and she was one of my students and she asked me to help take the knowledge deeper. They’re women, these women are also gardeners and so we want to talk about how they can grow their own medicine and talk about what they’re experiencing in their lives right?

Cristine

Is that local?

Coleen

It’s in D.C. great, yeah and I’m not sure if I’m able to say the names okay? Yeah, we don’t we don’t do it but good for you yeah.

Cristine

That’s great yeah so what about plant walks do you have any plant walks or anything like that planned?

Coleen

I’m just like please can we have a plan I don’t have things scheduled right now, but I’m open to it I mean if people want to reach out. I’m open to these things right now I’m kind of feel like I’m in this liminal place like the between space and landing in my yard that’s the work I want to do and I’ve had yeah I’m open to it if people want to I love doing those things.

Cristine

I’m raising my hands as an herbalist who obviously is so connected to the tradition and the plants and the energy around what it’s like to be a true healer calling on ancestors and plant spirits I know that sounds kind of woo-woo but it’s a real thing but seriously about as an herbalist what is one thing that you wish people knew about herbal medicine.

Coleen

I wish people knew that it is accessible and it but just as we’ve talked about it it’s it needs to have a thorough assessment of what I worry most about. With you know sexy marketing of certain plants like ashwagandha had you know a couple of years ago was getting all this attention so crazy and I worry that do a disservice to healing and what the plants really can do and cannabis I mean think about cannabis, I mean it is one medicine but it also is on the extreme spectrum of nerve plants and there are so many plants in that spectrum that have just maybe even more or have just as much healing power as cannabis which is an amazing plant and I want people to know more about more plants and that you need to find the right formula for you and that if you take ashwagandha and you’re not seeing any results that it’s not because herbal medicine doesn’t work.

Cristine

Right yeah, that’s a great message to get out there.

Coleen

Yeah, it’s that it’s just not the right plant for you.

Cristine

Not the right one for you.

Coleen

Ashwagandha is definitely not the right plant for me I know.

Cristine

I’ve heard Tim’s story and her reaction to it.

Coleen

Ashwagandha yeah and I keep trying it every once in a while just to see why everybody loves ashwagandha, maybe I should try it again and I have the same reaction but that it’s not about in that way you know. People talk about how is herbalism safe, yes and in that way, it’s unsafe to me because it can delay a proper thorough protocol for a person and it can if a person takes a plant but they don’t want to take medicine I have plenty of people come to the herb store and say this I don’t want to take medicine but they want to just do these quick fix herbs and it’s not that’s not serving them because they’re delaying their healing more and more time and to me, in that way, it’s unsafe having this marketing for this one plant that can do this thing for you and you’ll be fine taking this high blood pressure formula and that’s made for a generic population and it’ll work for everybody and that’s just not the way it works it can help in the short term but in the long term for deeper healing and deeper safety and effectiveness you need a really thorough assessment and to really have a plant formulation for you and not for high blood pressure.

Cristine

Yeah getting to the root of who the person is.

Coleen

Yeah, so that’s what I want people to know herbalism it takes a serious thoughtful thorough assessment and but it’s for everybody it is even whether you’re on if you’re on pharmaceuticals even while you’re breathing. If you can take breath herbalism can help you. It can help you know your spirit your mind your heart you’re body so many different ways of working with plant medicine. I just finished a course last year actually on sacred essential oils and for the longest time I avoided e, essential oils do you mind if I go down this rabbit hole?

Cristine

Yeah, let’s do it because I’m the same way I’m like oh there’s a cold but.

Coleen

Yeah because they’re such potent medicine yeah super strong KP Khalsa and then I’ll go back to Kathy, one of my first teachers I was like stunned when he said it’s very potent medicine you have to be very careful with dosing and there are so many multi-level marketing businesses that have grown up around this medicine which I feel like it makes accessibility limited which I have an issue with that too so I had to like really heal my relationship with that to not put up walls against essential oils plus it takes so much plant medicine.

Cristine

That’s the thing I was getting essentially yes they’re so strong because it takes so much of the plant right to just get a little tiny drop of oil and so then comes in a sustainability issue and you know all the stuff circling that.

Coleen

Yeah and as an herbalist I’m responsible for the plants on the earth. Not just to the people I’m serving yes because if I’m taking too much of the plant for medicine we’re not going to have that medicine and it’s the plants aren’t there just for us they were here way before us. So we are lucky that we’re able to partner with them and we should honor them in that way and they’re not just here for us to take take take take and just use them to help serve us because that’s not what their role is in my opinion we’re lucky that we can do this and I want to give them that respect so and gratitude.

Cristine

And that gratitude.

Coleen

That deep gratitude and make sure and you know make sure my footprint isn’t huge as an

herbalist that I’m just not thinking about sustainability and taking plants that are from, I mean I do use plants that are from other parts of the world, but I am very trying to be thoughtful about it because you know what are the conditions of the people growing it but I took a sacred oil alchemy class and it really helped me connect to the essential oils in a different way. About the path of the micropore, we were talking about plants you know can help you spiritually you know essential oils can be used very thoughtfully that way they should not be taken internally because they that out loud again and again and again yeah because they’re such potent medicine and they might not have a side effect in the beginning you might not see something short term but cumulatively it can damage your mucosal membranes and then really wreak havoc in the body as it has this immune response over time. This exposure chronic exposure to this potent medicine

Cristine

So thank you for this message that plant medicine is serious medicine yeah and should be considered as such and consulting a clinical herbalist is the best way to go.

Coleen

Yes or somebody who’s had a body of acceptance a body of training and experience yeah

we have a couple of well.

Cristine

We have one naturopathic doctor here at CIH and so she has some herbal training and so yeah it’s fun talking with her yes, but yeah someone with training exactly it’s serious medicine.

Coleen

Yes definitely!

Cristine

Not to be underestimated yes definitely yeah so thank you for creating that awareness or reminding us of that I know you don’t have a website and I’m actually bowing down to that but how can people learn more about you and your work is there a phone number or email or do you want to share anything like that or do you just want to let you know.

Coleen

I’m happy to share they can email me, my name colleenzontag@gmail.com2002es and colleen z-u-n-t-a-g gmail.com email me and just put herbal consultation or herbal information in the subject line and I also again a smile yeah that’s the best way to get in touch with me or they can come if they want to see me in person suss me out and make sure I’m not some crazy woman that’s just going.

Cristine

I can assure you she doesn’t!

Coleen

Have to go graze in the grass. I’ve had a parent actually come to me to meet me that way. it’s like I want to make sure you’re not just going to go tell them to pick dandelions before I have you work with my son.

Cristine

Nothing is wrong with dandelion

Coleen

I totally recommend the mother for doing that. Definitely but anyway you gotta be on the show out on Tuesday afternoons at smile usually I was I’m there now but I’m here with you thank you and we’re so grateful to have you here today.

Cristine

Thank you Colleen for joining us. For sharing your wisdom your beautiful light and energy and your fire and passion for this work. I’m so grateful thank you!

Coleen

Thank you!